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      "text": "这期我们其实想接着上次，我们留",
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    {
      "id": 14,
      "start": 44.309,
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      "id": 17,
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      "text": "run 这种 long horizon task，就是几个小时",
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    {
      "id": 20,
      "start": 66.453,
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      "text": "的这种 task。然后整个过程当中，它需要",
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    {
      "id": 21,
      "start": 68.648,
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      "text": "一个一整套的 evaluation validation",
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    },
    {
      "id": 22,
      "start": 72.155,
      "end": 75.045,
      "text": "然后 self correction，这一套的机制能",
      "source": "source_caption",
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    },
    {
      "id": 23,
      "start": 75.045,
      "end": 78.125,
      "text": "保证它能做一个更长的 task。我的从功能",
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    },
    {
      "id": 24,
      "start": 78.125,
      "end": 80.766,
      "text": "上理解是这样理解的，我不知道你怎么看。",
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    },
    {
      "id": 25,
      "start": 80.766,
      "end": 82.903,
      "text": "从产品来说吧，我觉得可能就是说，",
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    },
    {
      "id": 26,
      "start": 82.903,
      "end": 85.817,
      "text": "大家刚开始做这个大语言模型，可能更",
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    },
    {
      "id": 27,
      "start": 85.817,
      "end": 88.657,
      "text": "多的就是看这个叫什么，这个光标对吧，",
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      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 28,
      "start": 88.657,
      "end": 91.461,
      "text": "就是我打进去一个一个问题，然后你模型",
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      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 29,
      "start": 91.461,
      "end": 93.972,
      "text": "给我一个答案，这可能是第一个雏形。",
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      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 30,
      "start": 93.972,
      "end": 95.45,
      "text": "那个时候就是比较热门的就是叫",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 31,
      "start": 95.45,
      "end": 98.428,
      "text": "prompt engineering 对吧，大家想怎么把",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 32,
      "start": 98.428,
      "end": 101.568,
      "text": "这个 prompt 写好。然后当时其实我们内部",
      "source": "source_caption",
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    },
    {
      "id": 33,
      "start": 101.568,
      "end": 105.424,
      "text": "还在说，每一个模型它都有自己的个性，",
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      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 34,
      "start": 105.424,
      "end": 108.409,
      "text": "所以你用你自己的一套 prompt 去跟",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 35,
      "start": 108.409,
      "end": 112.185,
      "text": "OpenAI 说话，再去跟 Gemini 说话，他的理解",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 36,
      "start": 112.185,
      "end": 114.673,
      "text": "不太一样。所以当时模型能力也是受限，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 37,
      "start": 114.673,
      "end": 116.748,
      "text": "所以我们说 prompt engineering。对，后来",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 38,
      "start": 116.748,
      "end": 118.552,
      "text": "就变成了叫 context engineering 对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 39,
      "start": 118.552,
      "end": 120.971,
      "text": "context engineering 就是说你怎么把",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 40,
      "start": 120.971,
      "end": 123.598,
      "text": "合适的东西放在 prompt 里面，然后让",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 41,
      "start": 123.598,
      "end": 126.421,
      "text": "模型可以更有效。这个时候我觉得好像",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 42,
      "start": 126.421,
      "end": 129.414,
      "text": "大家还都是在做怎么回答好一个问题。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 43,
      "start": 129.414,
      "end": 132.233,
      "text": "现在我觉得就是说，我们一直得强调",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 44,
      "start": 132.233,
      "end": 135.229,
      "text": "ROI 对吧，就是说企业要买模型然后",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 45,
      "start": 135.229,
      "end": 137.802,
      "text": "部署这个东西，他要的是能够落地，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 46,
      "start": 137.802,
      "end": 140.758,
      "text": "他能让模型真正的去做一些任务。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 47,
      "start": 140.758,
      "end": 144.802,
      "text": "一旦做任务的话，就不只是简单是拿一个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 48,
      "start": 144.802,
      "end": 147.89,
      "text": "这个叫什么答案回来了，那他就可以要、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 49,
      "start": 147.89,
      "end": 151.904,
      "text": "要去执行代码对吧，要去 call API，然后要",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 50,
      "start": 151.904,
      "end": 155.565,
      "text": "保证这些东西能够安全然后合规对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 51,
      "start": 155.565,
      "end": 158.162,
      "text": "这个 Harness 其实就是衍生出来的这",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 52,
      "start": 158.162,
      "end": 161.419,
      "text": "一套在模型外面的系统，能够更好的、就是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 53,
      "start": 161.419,
      "end": 164.253,
      "text": "让这种像你刚刚说了这个可以跑很多",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 54,
      "start": 164.253,
      "end": 167.223,
      "text": "天的这种这种任务对吧，能够真正落地。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 55,
      "start": 167.223,
      "end": 170.353,
      "text": "我觉得就是说，可能他就是帮人们从一个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 56,
      "start": 170.353,
      "end": 174.984,
      "text": "简单的一个模型扩展到了一个一个系统。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 57,
      "start": 175.609,
      "end": 178.322,
      "text": "所以我是一个自然的 agent 发展的过来",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 58,
      "start": 178.322,
      "end": 180.291,
      "text": "一个，在我眼里的话，不觉得它是一个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 59,
      "start": 180.291,
      "end": 183.11,
      "text": "新生物种。我觉得它就是一个 agent 在",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 60,
      "start": 183.11,
      "end": 186.38,
      "text": "自我发展的过程当中自然而然产生",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 61,
      "start": 186.38,
      "end": 190.809,
      "text": "的一个更系统化、更复杂、更大规模、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 62,
      "start": 190.809,
      "end": 194.598,
      "text": "更 engineering 的一个系统组件吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 63,
      "start": 194.598,
      "end": 198.047,
      "text": "对，这就是一个就像你说的，在每一个发展的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 64,
      "start": 198.047,
      "end": 200.43,
      "text": "阶段，好像大家意识到一个新的问题对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 65,
      "start": 200.43,
      "end": 202.856,
      "text": "遇到一个新的问题，我们再给它起一个名字，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 66,
      "start": 202.856,
      "end": 204.774,
      "text": "把它当成一个问题然后来解决对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 67,
      "start": 204.774,
      "end": 207.826,
      "text": "可能在当前那个阶段，现在大家要讲求它",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 68,
      "start": 207.826,
      "end": 211.227,
      "text": "可以帮你去、就是自动化这些 task 对吧，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 69,
      "start": 211.227,
      "end": 214.677,
      "text": "那 harness 就产生了。那我们不如来说",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 70,
      "start": 214.677,
      "end": 219.282,
      "text": "一说 Deepseek 它做的 harness 系统。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 71,
      "start": 219.282,
      "end": 222.717,
      "text": "Deepseek 好像它 Open Source 大家都非常",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 72,
      "start": 222.717,
      "end": 225.434,
      "text": "喜欢的原因，是它把它变成了模组化，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 73,
      "start": 225.434,
      "end": 229.762,
      "text": "好像每一个都是一个 plugin、都是一个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 74,
      "start": 229.762,
      "end": 232.872,
      "text": "插件，然后大家都可以用来不同的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 75,
      "start": 232.872,
      "end": 236.466,
      "text": "组件来更换。这个的话是不是对企业、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 76,
      "start": 236.466,
      "end": 239.622,
      "text": "对很多开发的时候就有很大的帮助？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 77,
      "start": 239.622,
      "end": 244.078,
      "text": "对，从本质上的话，就把 harness 这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 78,
      "start": 244.078,
      "end": 247.389,
      "text": "事情变得更容易 engineering 了，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
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      "id": 79,
      "start": 247.389,
      "end": 249.869,
      "text": "就变得更容易去拆组，然后根据自己",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 80,
      "start": 249.869,
      "end": 253.822,
      "text": "的需求然后调整 harness 的 behavior。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 81,
      "start": 253.822,
      "end": 256.222,
      "text": "像以前的话大家都是在 Agent Loop 里面",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 82,
      "start": 256.222,
      "end": 259.591,
      "text": "加一些 tool、加一些 command、加一些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 83,
      "start": 259.591,
      "end": 263.95,
      "text": "permission check 这些事情，但是它",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 84,
      "start": 263.95,
      "end": 268.118,
      "text": "没有更系统化的去把整个 Agent Loop",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 85,
      "start": 268.118,
      "end": 272.496,
      "text": "里面不同的组件可以任意地搭配起来。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 86,
      "start": 273.158,
      "end": 276.575,
      "text": "其实我们之前好像讲 memory 那期也涉及",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 87,
      "start": 276.575,
      "end": 279.556,
      "text": "到了这些方面的话题。我们通常来说这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 88,
      "start": 279.556,
      "end": 283.765,
      "text": "Agent Loop 是比较简单的，就说你有没有",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 89,
      "start": 283.765,
      "end": 287.599,
      "text": "达到最终的目标、也完成这个任务，没完成",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 90,
      "start": 287.599,
      "end": 290.798,
      "text": "你就自动去、自己去发现为什么没有完成。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 91,
      "start": 290.798,
      "end": 293.427,
      "text": "在这个过程中的话，就需要这种不同",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 92,
      "start": 293.427,
      "end": 296.337,
      "text": "的组件然后去支持它完成这件事情。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 93,
      "start": 296.337,
      "end": 299.597,
      "text": "所以可能这种模块化的话，就让这种",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 94,
      "start": 299.597,
      "end": 304.04,
      "text": "工程学来说更容易，大家只需要用同样",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 95,
      "start": 304.04,
      "end": 307.683,
      "text": "的这么一个模板，对，把适应、对应的这些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 96,
      "start": 307.683,
      "end": 310.446,
      "text": "东西拿进来，它很容易就可以工作了。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 97,
      "start": 310.446,
      "end": 315.627,
      "text": "对，其实就是把 agent 的一些 best practice",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 98,
      "start": 315.627,
      "end": 318.186,
      "text": "以一种可拼装的形式组在一起。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 99,
      "start": 318.638,
      "end": 321.697,
      "text": "你觉得这个 Deepseek 为什么会 open source",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 100,
      "start": 321.697,
      "end": 323.482,
      "text": "这个？因为你像我们之前内部的话，曾经",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 101,
      "start": 323.482,
      "end": 326.191,
      "text": "还有一段时间看这个 Claude Code 对吧，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 102,
      "start": 326.191,
      "end": 328.147,
      "text": "他做了这个 managed agent，然后大家",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 103,
      "start": 328.147,
      "end": 330.097,
      "text": "都说，哇，他这个 harness 做的真不错。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 104,
      "start": 330.097,
      "end": 332.61,
      "text": "他就会觉得这个 harness 感觉是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 105,
      "start": 332.61,
      "end": 334.838,
      "text": "又是一个下一个风口对吧，所以要",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 106,
      "start": 334.838,
      "end": 337.72,
      "text": "赶快去做这件事。但是这个 Deepseek",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 107,
      "start": 337.72,
      "end": 340.258,
      "text": "直接就把他自己的这一套给开源了。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 108,
      "start": 340.814,
      "end": 343.847,
      "text": "我当时看到开源的时候，我主要是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 109,
      "start": 343.847,
      "end": 346.739,
      "text": "当时的思考逻辑就是说，他把它、因为",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 110,
      "start": 346.739,
      "end": 350.62,
      "text": "Deepseek 他们是开源模型对吧，他是模型。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 111,
      "start": 350.62,
      "end": 353.24,
      "text": "一般的人都不会自己在、不会用这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 112,
      "start": 353.24,
      "end": 355.876,
      "text": "Deepseek 自己的提供 API 去用这些大模型，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 113,
      "start": 355.876,
      "end": 358.222,
      "text": "或者用 Deepseek 的 service 去用这些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 114,
      "start": 358.222,
      "end": 359.955,
      "text": "大模型，他可能在任意地方去 serve。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 115,
      "start": 359.955,
      "end": 361.994,
      "text": "他一旦自己 serve 这些 model 的时候，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 116,
      "start": 361.994,
      "end": 363.519,
      "text": "他就会面临一个问题：那我用什么样的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 117,
      "start": 363.519,
      "end": 366.118,
      "text": "harness environment 去做这件事情？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 118,
      "start": 366.118,
      "end": 369.621,
      "text": "你也可以用 OpenAI 的，你也可以用 Claude，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 119,
      "start": 369.621,
      "end": 372.42,
      "text": "但是可能最好的就不如用一个它自、这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 120,
      "start": 372.42,
      "end": 375.677,
      "text": "Deepseek 调制好的这样的一个 harness。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 121,
      "start": 375.677,
      "end": 377.894,
      "text": "这样的话，大家对于这个 Deepseek 这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 122,
      "start": 377.894,
      "end": 380.089,
      "text": "model，特别是那些小一点 weights",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 123,
      "start": 380.089,
      "end": 382.168,
      "text": "的 model、小一点的 model，可能就是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 124,
      "start": 382.168,
      "end": 384.296,
      "text": "使用体验会好很多。所以整体来说，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 125,
      "start": 384.296,
      "end": 386.614,
      "text": "可能就是这个能 help 他们的 adoption。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 126,
      "start": 386.614,
      "end": 389.313,
      "text": "对，我们刚才提出说到一点我还觉得挺、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 127,
      "start": 389.313,
      "end": 392.32,
      "text": "就突然我想到了哈，就是用 Deepseek",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 128,
      "start": 392.32,
      "end": 394.377,
      "text": "的很多企业，可能他真的不会去、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 129,
      "start": 394.377,
      "end": 397.978,
      "text": "就是去 call 这个 Deepseek 的 API 对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 130,
      "start": 397.978,
      "end": 399.987,
      "text": "他可能觉得不、这个对吧，不太信任。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 131,
      "start": 399.987,
      "end": 403.288,
      "text": "反而他可能就是把这个 open weights model",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 132,
      "start": 403.288,
      "end": 405.745,
      "text": "用在自己的数据中心，或者是其他的云",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 133,
      "start": 405.745,
      "end": 408.665,
      "text": "对吧。那这个时候他就非常的独立了，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 134,
      "start": 408.665,
      "end": 411.178,
      "text": "那他就等于这个、这个系统没有。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 135,
      "start": 411.178,
      "end": 413.23,
      "text": "那对于 Deepseek 来说，那可能我把这",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 136,
      "start": 413.23,
      "end": 416.551,
      "text": "一部分也开源了，也是他唯一的途径。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 137,
      "start": 416.568,
      "end": 421.334,
      "text": "要不然他也很难说有一套像 Claude",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 138,
      "start": 421.334,
      "end": 423.746,
      "text": "一样，他做一个 managed service，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 139,
      "start": 423.746,
      "end": 425.036,
      "text": "大家可能也很难信任他，然后去",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 140,
      "start": 425.036,
      "end": 427.104,
      "text": "把这个服务 run 在他这个上面。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 141,
      "start": 427.104,
      "end": 431.341,
      "text": "其实 Deepseek 的 CEO 梁文锋之前在一次",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 142,
      "start": 431.341,
      "end": 433.693,
      "text": "的这个泄露的内部会议上面，其实提到",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 143,
      "start": 433.693,
      "end": 436.384,
      "text": "过一次，他们说他们就要专注、专注于做",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 144,
      "start": 436.384,
      "end": 440.711,
      "text": "generic 大模型，其实没有提到这个 harness。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 145,
      "start": 440.711,
      "end": 442.887,
      "text": "然后我觉得他们现在把这个放出来，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 146,
      "start": 442.887,
      "end": 446.34,
      "text": "不知道是他们以后就要专注这个方向、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 147,
      "start": 446.34,
      "end": 448.508,
      "text": "然后持续放出来这个东西，还是说我这",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 148,
      "start": 448.508,
      "end": 450.845,
      "text": "东西做了一个版本把它 open source",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 149,
      "start": 450.845,
      "end": 453.324,
      "text": "出去，不做我们一个拳头产品做研发。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 150,
      "start": 453.404,
      "end": 456.498,
      "text": "你这个角度很有趣，其实也可以是我们下",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 151,
      "start": 456.498,
      "end": 459.417,
      "text": "一个话题：这东西为什么就突然火了对吧？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 152,
      "start": 459.417,
      "end": 462.025,
      "text": "是不是因为这些像你说 Deepseek 这些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 153,
      "start": 462.025,
      "end": 464.802,
      "text": "大模型公司突然发现，好像模型卷的东西",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 154,
      "start": 464.802,
      "end": 468.162,
      "text": "不多了，然后这个外边有好多新的一个领域",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 155,
      "start": 468.162,
      "end": 471.904,
      "text": "可以去卷，然后所以大家都开始做 harness。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 156,
      "start": 473.308,
      "end": 476.906,
      "text": "其实我觉得在应用环境当中，除了这非常",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 157,
      "start": 476.906,
      "end": 482.498,
      "text": "generic 的 task，harness 这个东西还是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 158,
      "start": 482.498,
      "end": 485.976,
      "text": "非常复杂的。包括我内部的 API 怎么调用，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 159,
      "start": 485.976,
      "end": 488.459,
      "text": "假如你一个公司内部开发了某一个 API，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 160,
      "start": 488.459,
      "end": 491.008,
      "text": "或者说某一个 validation 那个东西，或者",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 161,
      "start": 491.008,
      "end": 494.865,
      "text": "某个 rule，这些大模型其实很难知道的。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 162,
      "start": 494.865,
      "end": 497.719,
      "text": "然后这些 API 可能定义的非常的不直觉，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 163,
      "start": 497.719,
      "end": 501.908,
      "text": "也非常不符合这个 semantic 的定义，就需要",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 164,
      "start": 501.908,
      "end": 505.32,
      "text": "去做这个 harness。以前大家做法就是说，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 165,
      "start": 505.32,
      "end": 507.808,
      "text": "要不就写在 prompt 里面我这里面都有什么",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 166,
      "start": 507.808,
      "end": 510.265,
      "text": "东西，然后后来做 context engineering，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 167,
      "start": 510.265,
      "end": 513.604,
      "text": "就是我写一些 skills 把这些说清楚。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 168,
      "start": 513.604,
      "end": 515.596,
      "text": "现在更进阶的办法，就是我把这些东西都",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 169,
      "start": 515.596,
      "end": 518.122,
      "text": "编制在我的 harness environment 里面，才能",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 170,
      "start": 518.122,
      "end": 521.82,
      "text": "让我系统化的开发所有 agent 都比较好用。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 171,
      "start": 521.82,
      "end": 524.258,
      "text": "所以这可能也是我们为什么看到多数的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 172,
      "start": 524.258,
      "end": 527.753,
      "text": "harness 的系统现在还都是在 coding agent",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 173,
      "start": 527.753,
      "end": 530.12,
      "text": "上。可能你要是做这种企业的部署，这",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 174,
      "start": 530.12,
      "end": 534.12,
      "text": "vertical 这种垂直领域的还是比较难。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 175,
      "start": 534.46,
      "end": 536.867,
      "text": "说到这个头，其实 harness 它对于企业",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 176,
      "start": 536.867,
      "end": 538.791,
      "text": "的一部分需求解决挺好的。就是说这种",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 177,
      "start": 538.791,
      "end": 541.867,
      "text": "quality 来看，就是刚才说是 coding 嘛。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 178,
      "start": 541.867,
      "end": 544.6,
      "text": "他 coding 大家现在看的主要还是这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 179,
      "start": 544.6,
      "end": 546.84,
      "text": "quality 怎么样，因为都是 human in the loop，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 180,
      "start": 546.84,
      "end": 548.874,
      "text": "不会太会让这个 coding 完全自动化。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 181,
      "start": 548.874,
      "end": 551.15,
      "text": "你最后还是要看一下，哪怕我不看 code，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 182,
      "start": 551.15,
      "end": 552.94,
      "text": "我也要看一下这个生产的 app 的结果。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 183,
      "start": 552.94,
      "end": 555.54,
      "text": "所以说结果更重要、效率更重要，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 184,
      "start": 555.54,
      "end": 558.34,
      "text": "我结果正确概率越大，觉得越好用。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 185,
      "start": 564.414,
      "end": 566.981,
      "text": "企业它很多这种自动化的要求的话，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 186,
      "start": 566.981,
      "end": 570.393,
      "text": "它希望这东西就是帮我把它做对，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 187,
      "start": 570.393,
      "end": 573.085,
      "text": "那这个就需要很大的 guarantee，或者",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 188,
      "start": 573.085,
      "end": 575.404,
      "text": "是 follow 某一个 rule，永远都要 follow",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 189,
      "start": 575.404,
      "end": 578.454,
      "text": "这个 rule，那不 follow 的话就是不可以的。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 190,
      "start": 578.454,
      "end": 580.395,
      "text": "那这种情况下，在 harness、这种通常的这",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 191,
      "start": 580.395,
      "end": 583.674,
      "text": "harness 的并没有实际的解决这类问题。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 192,
      "start": 584.252,
      "end": 587.965,
      "text": "其实也就是说，harness 并不能够真正的把",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 193,
      "start": 587.965,
      "end": 592.493,
      "text": "一个可以重复反复的这种 workflow 变成",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 194,
      "start": 592.493,
      "end": 597.038,
      "text": "一种、就是更 deterministic 这种情况对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 195,
      "start": 597.038,
      "end": 600.554,
      "text": "它还是等于做了很多的希望能够让它",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 196,
      "start": 600.554,
      "end": 604.22,
      "text": "变成更可靠，但是事实上还是会出现各种",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 197,
      "start": 604.22,
      "end": 606.245,
      "text": "问题。所以如果说用咱以前说的这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 198,
      "start": 606.245,
      "end": 609.164,
      "text": "availability 是几个 9 嘛是吧，我觉得",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 199,
      "start": 609.164,
      "end": 612.514,
      "text": "现在可能就是一个 9 的状态，90% 做对，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 200,
      "start": 612.514,
      "end": 615.66,
      "text": "但是企业可能需要三个 9、四个 9，但一直都",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 201,
      "start": 615.66,
      "end": 618.784,
      "text": "是这样子，所以还是有很大的距离要做。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 202,
      "start": 619.068,
      "end": 621.766,
      "text": "对，确实是。因为像我们内部当时在做这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 203,
      "start": 621.766,
      "end": 624.981,
      "text": "Agent Memory 的 benchmark，我们开源的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 204,
      "start": 624.981,
      "end": 627.433,
      "text": "一个东西叫 State-bench，对，之前有说过。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 205,
      "start": 627.433,
      "end": 630.345,
      "text": "其实我们另外定义了一个 metrics，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 206,
      "start": 630.345,
      "end": 633.05,
      "text": "就是 run 同一个 task run 五遍，看看你",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 207,
      "start": 633.05,
      "end": 635.284,
      "text": "是不是都能拿到同样的结果对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 208,
      "start": 635.284,
      "end": 638.265,
      "text": "就是如果你发现这个有起伏，那就说明",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 209,
      "start": 638.265,
      "end": 640.991,
      "text": "你这一套 workflow 定义的 harness 就",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 210,
      "start": 640.991,
      "end": 644.744,
      "text": "不够，对 enterprise 里面就不够可靠。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 211,
      "start": 644.744,
      "end": 647.368,
      "text": "5 次都做对，其实也不是那么可靠听起来。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 212,
      "start": 647.368,
      "end": 650.754,
      "text": "哈哈。哈哈，对。那这个东西是吧，你要做到多少？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 213,
      "start": 650.754,
      "end": 654.688,
      "text": "这个三个 9，那就得 run 多少次，就几万次可能。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 214,
      "start": 655.624,
      "end": 658.891,
      "text": "感觉整个就算 harness 现在我们想到的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 215,
      "start": 658.891,
      "end": 661.827,
      "text": "这个雏形就做到非常好，也很难去解决这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 216,
      "start": 661.827,
      "end": 664.904,
      "text": "真正 enterprise 里面的这些部署问题。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 217,
      "start": 664.904,
      "end": 665.604,
      "text": "对。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 218,
      "start": 665.604,
      "end": 669.866,
      "text": "所以我觉得这个 harness 本身的话，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 219,
      "start": 669.866,
      "end": 672.28,
      "text": "那可能是至少跟现在的这种方式，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 220,
      "start": 672.28,
      "end": 674.454,
      "text": "可能不足以解决 enterprise 的问题。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 221,
      "start": 674.454,
      "end": 676.932,
      "text": "那你说下一个东西能解决 enterprise 的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 222,
      "start": 676.932,
      "end": 679.245,
      "text": "问题是不是叫 harness？又会起一个新的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 223,
      "start": 679.245,
      "end": 682.956,
      "text": "名字对吧。可能现在有叫 Control plane。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 224,
      "start": 682.956,
      "end": 685.196,
      "text": "loop engineering 算不算？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 225,
      "start": 685.196,
      "end": 686.596,
      "text": "有 loop engineering。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 226,
      "start": 686.596,
      "end": 689.407,
      "text": "还有 governance 对吧。然后这些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 227,
      "start": 689.407,
      "end": 691.456,
      "text": "东西可能就是下一代东西能",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 228,
      "start": 691.456,
      "end": 693.656,
      "text": "帮助企业把这个确实做好。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 229,
      "start": 693.996,
      "end": 698.144,
      "text": "其实我们前一期录的时候我有分享一点。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 230,
      "start": 698.144,
      "end": 701.085,
      "text": "我觉得像 Deepseek 的这种方式，它把所有",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 231,
      "start": 701.085,
      "end": 704.536,
      "text": "的东西都变成一个 plugin，然后这个其实",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 232,
      "start": 704.536,
      "end": 707.445,
      "text": "是我觉得是相信大模型的一个做法。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 233,
      "start": 707.445,
      "end": 711.308,
      "text": "它甚至连 agent loop 你都可以换掉，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 234,
      "start": 711.308,
      "end": 714.248,
      "text": "当然这是需要人去换。我们当时做的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 235,
      "start": 714.248,
      "end": 718.499,
      "text": "memory 就是说，大模型可能不能够很",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 236,
      "start": 718.499,
      "end": 722.686,
      "text": "稳定的去 call memory，我要做一个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 237,
      "start": 722.686,
      "end": 725.096,
      "text": "knowledge base 的种 retrieval 什么时候，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 238,
      "start": 725.096,
      "end": 727.763,
      "text": "我就 hard code 进去，每次都做，保证一定",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 239,
      "start": 727.763,
      "end": 731.344,
      "text": "会有这个 context。这个其实大家就等于",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 240,
      "start": 731.344,
      "end": 734.219,
      "text": "在这个 loop 里面做了很多很多工作。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 241,
      "start": 734.219,
      "end": 737.527,
      "text": "现在这么看来的话，就说 Deepseek 的这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 242,
      "start": 737.527,
      "end": 740.381,
      "text": "角度，它就很明确的是说我们放权了对吧，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 243,
      "start": 740.381,
      "end": 745.814,
      "text": "让大模型、让 intelligence 去 lead the way。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 244,
      "start": 745.814,
      "end": 749.59,
      "text": "这个我觉得还是、我觉得还是怎么说，我",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 245,
      "start": 749.59,
      "end": 751.751,
      "text": "觉得从他的角度来，他做这件事非常合理，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 246,
      "start": 751.751,
      "end": 754.456,
      "text": "作为一个 open source、相信一个未来的角度。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 247,
      "start": 754.456,
      "end": 756.586,
      "text": "对。对于 enterprise，可能大家现在",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 248,
      "start": 756.586,
      "end": 758.574,
      "text": "还是会说我都 hardcode 起来，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 249,
      "start": 758.574,
      "end": 760.876,
      "text": "这样就更确定性更高一点。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 250,
      "start": 761.87,
      "end": 764.921,
      "text": "对，所以其实你提到这个所有东西，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 251,
      "start": 764.921,
      "end": 766.882,
      "text": "对于我们来说都特别兴奋的。就是说，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 252,
      "start": 766.882,
      "end": 768.971,
      "text": "因为我们在做 self improving agent，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 253,
      "start": 768.971,
      "end": 771.936,
      "text": "就自我迭代嘛，那你要是能系统性的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 254,
      "start": 771.936,
      "end": 775.806,
      "text": "决定你所有东西都是可以自我调整的，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 255,
      "start": 775.806,
      "end": 779.633,
      "text": "那就会有最大的 flexibility。就像基因",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 256,
      "start": 779.633,
      "end": 782.435,
      "text": "对吧，你所有的这个链组都是可以改的，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 257,
      "start": 782.435,
      "end": 785.118,
      "text": "那你就是进化就无限的可能对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 258,
      "start": 785.118,
      "end": 788.531,
      "text": "所以就是看到他们这样做的时候觉得，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 259,
      "start": 788.531,
      "end": 790.943,
      "text": "哦，这个还是有人跟我们想的思路挺",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 260,
      "start": 790.943,
      "end": 793.865,
      "text": "像的，就认为所有东西都是可以改的。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 261,
      "start": 793.865,
      "end": 797.154,
      "text": "但是现在还没有看到改这个 model 自己的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 262,
      "start": 797.154,
      "end": 800.674,
      "text": "architecture、自己 weights 的这个事情，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 263,
      "start": 800.674,
      "end": 802.726,
      "text": "可能把这个 fine-tuning 的这东西加进去",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 264,
      "start": 802.726,
      "end": 804.703,
      "text": "之后，它的连接 model 自己也可以改自己。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 265,
      "start": 804.703,
      "end": 808.643,
      "text": "对，这个主要就是叫什么时间 compute 对吧？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 266,
      "start": 808.743,
      "end": 810.95,
      "text": "这个可能现在还不是特别 feasible。对，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 267,
      "start": 811.158,
      "end": 815.096,
      "text": "但我相信肯定最后也会有人做。但是事实上，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 268,
      "start": 815.303,
      "end": 817.603,
      "text": "我觉得这也是一个迷思，我们可能扯远了。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 269,
      "start": 817.723,
      "end": 820.843,
      "text": "就是 continuous training 这个话题其实",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 270,
      "start": 820.843,
      "end": 824.83,
      "text": "是感觉是老生常谈了，其实当时我们在",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 271,
      "start": 824.83,
      "end": 827.883,
      "text": "做 AI 的很多年前就在做这个，但是好像",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 272,
      "start": 827.883,
      "end": 831.369,
      "text": "在那个时代也都没有落地。这个就里面",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 273,
      "start": 831.369,
      "end": 835.295,
      "text": "感觉还是有很多这个叫什么 bottleneck。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 274,
      "start": 835.295,
      "end": 836.295,
      "text": "对。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 275,
      "start": 837.503,
      "end": 842.514,
      "text": "还是价值不是特别清楚我觉得。因为你像",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 276,
      "start": 842.514,
      "end": 845.127,
      "text": "之前是 continuous learning 一般都是做",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 277,
      "start": 845.127,
      "end": 848.341,
      "text": "fine tuning，然后 fine tuning 还比较花数据，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 278,
      "start": 848.341,
      "end": 851.605,
      "text": "然后能提高的东西也比较有限，然后还有",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 279,
      "start": 851.605,
      "end": 855.247,
      "text": "解决这个、还解决不了以前这个会忘记过去",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 280,
      "start": 855.247,
      "end": 860.082,
      "text": "的问题。所以这东西作为一个卖点的话，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 281,
      "start": 860.082,
      "end": 862.857,
      "text": "让用户看到效果可能需要很长的时间。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 282,
      "start": 862.857,
      "end": 865.569,
      "text": "我觉得现在的这个 self improvement",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 283,
      "start": 865.569,
      "end": 867.457,
      "text": "像咱上次聊的，还是面临同样的问题：",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 284,
      "start": 867.457,
      "end": 871.161,
      "text": "我又怎么样能给这个用户看到价值？他们",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 285,
      "start": 871.161,
      "end": 874.597,
      "text": "还是很希望现在我买东西现在开箱即用。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 286,
      "start": 875.071,
      "end": 877.69,
      "text": "确实是。但我觉得像这个 Deepseek 的话，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 287,
      "start": 877.69,
      "end": 881.157,
      "text": "就应该已经帮助很多公司可以做到这个了。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 288,
      "start": 881.157,
      "end": 884.16,
      "text": "因为我其实发布以后试了试，然后看了",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 289,
      "start": 884.16,
      "end": 887.22,
      "text": "网上那些大家用的体验，很多人就是说",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 290,
      "start": 887.22,
      "end": 890.398,
      "text": "拿来啪一跑，然后换上千问的模型就",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 291,
      "start": 890.398,
      "end": 893.498,
      "text": "非常强。我觉得这个东西其实就是让",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 292,
      "start": 893.498,
      "end": 897.311,
      "text": "大家更能够离 frontier 就更近一步。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 293,
      "start": 898.243,
      "end": 899.543,
      "text": "对，确实。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 294,
      "start": 899.551,
      "end": 901.931,
      "text": "我们刚才提到了这个 Claude 是有",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 295,
      "start": 901.931,
      "end": 905.864,
      "text": "managed agent。当时其实我们很担心的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 296,
      "start": 905.864,
      "end": 909.033,
      "text": "一块，就是你如果是大模型公司，你的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 297,
      "start": 909.033,
      "end": 912.684,
      "text": "harness 其实是可以和模型一起去训练的。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 298,
      "start": 912.684,
      "end": 916.151,
      "text": "如果我们是说一些非常通用的这些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 299,
      "start": 916.151,
      "end": 919.151,
      "text": "工具的话，比如说读写一个文件什么，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 300,
      "start": 919.151,
      "end": 922.237,
      "text": "这些大家都可以；但一旦涉及到有一些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 301,
      "start": 922.237,
      "end": 925.392,
      "text": "比如说你私有化的一些工具，如果是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 302,
      "start": 925.392,
      "end": 931.69,
      "text": "frontier lab，Anthropic、Gemini、OpenAI，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 303,
      "start": 931.69,
      "end": 933.715,
      "text": "它是不是就会比其他的这种公司要有",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 304,
      "start": 933.715,
      "end": 936.565,
      "text": "一个很大的一个优势？当然 Deepseek",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 305,
      "start": 936.565,
      "end": 938.979,
      "text": "我们说的也是它拥有这个模型。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 306,
      "start": 938.979,
      "end": 942.081,
      "text": "那有一些开源的这种做 harness 的话，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 307,
      "start": 942.081,
      "end": 944.497,
      "text": "它不能够跟模型强绑定，这种情况",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 308,
      "start": 944.497,
      "end": 948.065,
      "text": "是不是他们的这竞争力就会差很多？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 309,
      "start": 948.667,
      "end": 952.047,
      "text": "这个确实我两边都觉得有可能。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 310,
      "start": 952.047,
      "end": 954.819,
      "text": "一方面就是在大模型的话，他们自己",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 311,
      "start": 954.819,
      "end": 957.647,
      "text": "train 自己的 harness，但是他们其实",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 312,
      "start": 957.647,
      "end": 960.54,
      "text": "想要开发的是更通用的智能对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 313,
      "start": 960.54,
      "end": 965.522,
      "text": "所以就是说，一方面我觉得他应该不会",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 314,
      "start": 965.522,
      "end": 969.918,
      "text": "说是我就要 customize 的 model，假如说",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 315,
      "start": 969.918,
      "end": 973.515,
      "text": "OpenAI 就是给我 Codex 去 train 我这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 316,
      "start": 973.515,
      "end": 977.072,
      "text": "model，以至于它在这 harness 做的很好。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 317,
      "start": 977.072,
      "end": 979.213,
      "text": "有可能的可能是说，它能有更早的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 318,
      "start": 979.213,
      "end": 982.439,
      "text": "access 这个 model，然后可能根据这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 319,
      "start": 982.439,
      "end": 987.239,
      "text": "事情把它 harness 做的优化，这个有可能。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 320,
      "start": 987.239,
      "end": 991.003,
      "text": "然后回到创业的话，其实你像 Pi 现在大家，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 321,
      "start": 991.003,
      "end": 993.095,
      "text": "我虽然说我还没有自己用过，但是现在就是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 322,
      "start": 993.095,
      "end": 996.703,
      "text": "feedback 特别好，就说他们特别的省 token。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 323,
      "start": 996.703,
      "end": 997.943,
      "text": "省 token。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 324,
      "start": 1000.559,
      "end": 1002.339,
      "text": "所以至于说这个模型怎么能跟",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 325,
      "start": 1002.339,
      "end": 1005.639,
      "text": "harness 做好、然后怎么跟 coding agent",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 326,
      "start": 1005.639,
      "end": 1007.539,
      "text": "做的更好的话，我觉得这个也不是说",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 327,
      "start": 1007.539,
      "end": 1010.001,
      "text": "别人就没有这个 technology，在大家",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 328,
      "start": 1010.001,
      "end": 1012.415,
      "text": "都有这个大模型 access 的前提下。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 329,
      "start": 1012.415,
      "end": 1015.165,
      "text": "因为你像说 Pi 的话，就是我看到他说他很省、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 330,
      "start": 1015.165,
      "end": 1018.018,
      "text": "省 token 的原因，一个就是说他 system",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 331,
      "start": 1018.018,
      "end": 1020.959,
      "text": "prompt 是少于 1000 个 token，就非常小；",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 332,
      "start": 1020.959,
      "end": 1024.945,
      "text": "其次他整个 harness 里面就只有四个 tool，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 333,
      "start": 1024.945,
      "end": 1027.855,
      "text": "就是读写文件然后改文件，就这些东西。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 334,
      "start": 1027.855,
      "end": 1031.248,
      "text": "从 Deepseek 的角度说，他就非常广泛。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 335,
      "start": 1031.248,
      "end": 1034.881,
      "text": "你再看 Claude code 的话，其实我相信他就",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 336,
      "start": 1034.881,
      "end": 1037.475,
      "text": "更多了，因为他还要 manage 自己的 memory。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 337,
      "start": 1037.475,
      "end": 1039.581,
      "text": "他可能、我不知道 Claude 里面还有一些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 338,
      "start": 1039.581,
      "end": 1043.335,
      "text": "API，他要 set 一个 outcome 这种东西。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 339,
      "start": 1043.388,
      "end": 1046.455,
      "text": "其实从一定的角度来说，你把这个模型",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 340,
      "start": 1046.455,
      "end": 1051.045,
      "text": "和 harness 绑定去做这件事的，其实",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 341,
      "start": 1051.045,
      "end": 1054.568,
      "text": "你是有飞轮的、飞轮效应的。因为你说",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 342,
      "start": 1054.568,
      "end": 1058.917,
      "text": "coding Agent 的话，我落地的 Use Case 是这样，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 343,
      "start": 1058.917,
      "end": 1062.589,
      "text": "我可以试试怎么能够把它弄得更好，然后",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 344,
      "start": 1062.589,
      "end": 1066.269,
      "text": "反而去看看这东西能不能变成通用的。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 345,
      "start": 1066.269,
      "end": 1069.589,
      "text": "好像就是说直接去做通用，我只是猜想，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 346,
      "start": 1069.589,
      "end": 1074.869,
      "text": "就是说直接做通用的话感觉太广泛了。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 347,
      "start": 1075.123,
      "end": 1079.758,
      "text": "对，确实做通用、直接做通用的难度高很多，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 348,
      "start": 1079.758,
      "end": 1082.613,
      "text": "然后要求也高很多。对，但是如果能把它",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 349,
      "start": 1082.613,
      "end": 1085.4,
      "text": "做通，像 cursor 一样对吧，他最后也能",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 350,
      "start": 1085.4,
      "end": 1088.086,
      "text": "创业自己的 model，然后他反向的去控制",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 351,
      "start": 1088.086,
      "end": 1090.867,
      "text": "这件事情，说不定也是一个创业的机会。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 352,
      "start": 1090.867,
      "end": 1093.673,
      "text": "那说到创业的话，你觉得在企业这边，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 353,
      "start": 1093.673,
      "end": 1096.071,
      "text": "比如说我们做 vertical 和做比较",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 354,
      "start": 1096.071,
      "end": 1099.717,
      "text": "generalized 的一个 harness 是有区别的吗？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 355,
      "start": 1099.717,
      "end": 1102.999,
      "text": "因为我马上能想到的就比如说我们刚才",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 356,
      "start": 1102.999,
      "end": 1105.495,
      "text": "说有不同的工具，我们现在看到的这些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 357,
      "start": 1105.495,
      "end": 1109.166,
      "text": "harness 的工具，好像很难说我想去内部",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 358,
      "start": 1109.166,
      "end": 1113.037,
      "text": "调用一个什么 Google Workspace 的 tool，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 359,
      "start": 1113.037,
      "end": 1114.819,
      "text": "或者说想去调用一个微软的什么你的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 360,
      "start": 1114.819,
      "end": 1117.577,
      "text": "identity 的 tool 对吧。这些东西好像还",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 361,
      "start": 1117.577,
      "end": 1121.19,
      "text": "都是比较 specific，而且我们还现在",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 362,
      "start": 1121.19,
      "end": 1123.881,
      "text": "说的是……但是对于很多像公司来说，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 363,
      "start": 1123.881,
      "end": 1127.671,
      "text": "它要 private，这个东西就要变得非常难。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 364,
      "start": 1127.671,
      "end": 1130.087,
      "text": "我觉得它是有机会的，就是特别是像",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 365,
      "start": 1130.087,
      "end": 1132.356,
      "text": "企业这种应用啊。就特别现在是我们",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 366,
      "start": 1132.356,
      "end": 1134.914,
      "text": "看到一个 trend，就是现在很多的企业、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 367,
      "start": 1134.914,
      "end": 1137.431,
      "text": "不同的 industry 的话都在 train 自己",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 368,
      "start": 1137.431,
      "end": 1142.778,
      "text": "的这个 domain specific 这些大模型。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 369,
      "start": 1142.778,
      "end": 1146.006,
      "text": "像这个呃，刚刚那个 Harvey 自己那个 legal",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 370,
      "start": 1146.006,
      "end": 1149.039,
      "text": "的模型，我们一个叫 Tenet，其中一个例子。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 371,
      "start": 1149.039,
      "end": 1152.714,
      "text": "然后现在还有一些 insurance 公司也要做",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 372,
      "start": 1152.714,
      "end": 1156.629,
      "text": "自己的大模型，然后他们每一个 industry",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 373,
      "start": 1156.629,
      "end": 1160.315,
      "text": "里面它有非常多的自己的这些条款。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 374,
      "start": 1160.315,
      "end": 1163.071,
      "text": "虽然你说这些 information 有一部分是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 375,
      "start": 1163.071,
      "end": 1165.461,
      "text": "public information 对吧，但是这个说",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 376,
      "start": 1165.461,
      "end": 1168.383,
      "text": "Train 模型的时候可能没有那么多的区别。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 377,
      "start": 1168.383,
      "end": 1170.752,
      "text": "但是从 harness Environment 来讲，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 378,
      "start": 1170.752,
      "end": 1172.904,
      "text": "如果我们认为 coding 你可以做很多的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 379,
      "start": 1172.904,
      "end": 1176.249,
      "text": "harness，然后我觉得做这些某一个企业",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 380,
      "start": 1176.249,
      "end": 1178.735,
      "text": "domain 的具体业务流程，也会有很多这种",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 381,
      "start": 1178.735,
      "end": 1183.67,
      "text": "domain knowledge 可以强制的加进去的。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 382,
      "start": 1183.67,
      "end": 1185.94,
      "text": "所以我觉得还是，要是这些既然有",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 383,
      "start": 1185.94,
      "end": 1189.029,
      "text": "Open weights 这些模型 fine tune for 某个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 384,
      "start": 1189.029,
      "end": 1191.689,
      "text": "domain，那我觉得也会有很多这种跟着",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 385,
      "start": 1191.689,
      "end": 1195.649,
      "text": "这些模型一起的这些 harness 系统的存在。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 386,
      "start": 1195.799,
      "end": 1199.643,
      "text": "其实我可能看的就跟你不是特别一样。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 387,
      "start": 1199.643,
      "end": 1203.419,
      "text": "我是觉得你要是走 vertical 的话，我相信它",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 388,
      "start": 1203.419,
      "end": 1206.794,
      "text": "一定是会有一些 quality，但是我其实比较",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 389,
      "start": 1206.794,
      "end": 1210.736,
      "text": "持怀疑态度是，它到底能够有多大的提升。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 390,
      "start": 1210.736,
      "end": 1216.467,
      "text": "因为我们还是回到模型的通用的智能，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 391,
      "start": 1216.467,
      "end": 1221.923,
      "text": "它的能力是变得越来越强了，有些东西",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 392,
      "start": 1221.923,
      "end": 1224.089,
      "text": "可能你把它放到模型内部或者放到",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 393,
      "start": 1224.089,
      "end": 1227.771,
      "text": "harness 里面，可能就节约更多的一些 token。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 394,
      "start": 1227.771,
      "end": 1231.43,
      "text": "但是事实上它是不是真正能够使得这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 395,
      "start": 1231.43,
      "end": 1235.14,
      "text": "模型有巨大的提升，这个我确实不知道。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 396,
      "start": 1235.14,
      "end": 1238.832,
      "text": "而且像像 Harvey 那个例子，其实他是把",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 397,
      "start": 1238.832,
      "end": 1242.021,
      "text": "模型 train 了对吧，他其实在这个 harness",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 398,
      "start": 1242.021,
      "end": 1245.023,
      "text": "上面的话，可能就是说 interaction 也",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 399,
      "start": 1245.023,
      "end": 1247.305,
      "text": "是同样的一些东西，这个我就不知道了，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 400,
      "start": 1247.305,
      "end": 1249.871,
      "text": "不知道他们怎么去 run the benchmark。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 401,
      "start": 1249.871,
      "end": 1254.033,
      "text": "我猜应该是会做一些这个 work。就当像我们",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 402,
      "start": 1254.033,
      "end": 1256.782,
      "text": "当年在 Orby 做这个 computer use 上面的话，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 403,
      "start": 1256.782,
      "end": 1259.048,
      "text": "我们也下了很多的一些限制吧，当时不叫",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 404,
      "start": 1259.048,
      "end": 1261.775,
      "text": "harness，但是现在其实这些事情也都是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 405,
      "start": 1261.775,
      "end": 1264.39,
      "text": "定义在 harness：你怎么 maintain state，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 406,
      "start": 1264.39,
      "end": 1266.418,
      "text": "怎么进入下一步，什么东西可以做、什么",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 407,
      "start": 1266.418,
      "end": 1269.567,
      "text": "东西不可以做。所以我觉得可能那个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 408,
      "start": 1269.567,
      "end": 1275.088,
      "text": "这些 legal firm 还是没有到这里吧，他们",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 409,
      "start": 1275.088,
      "end": 1279.825,
      "text": "可能还都比较早期，所以说可能有机会。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 410,
      "start": 1279.825,
      "end": 1282.985,
      "text": "它确实像你说的，就是这些小模型啊",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 411,
      "start": 1282.985,
      "end": 1285.437,
      "text": "做 harness 这些事情能不能有一个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 412,
      "start": 1285.437,
      "end": 1289.055,
      "text": "实际 meaningful 的提高，这个不知道了。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 413,
      "start": 1289.055,
      "end": 1292.078,
      "text": "但是至少有一个是大家都认可的，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 414,
      "start": 1292.078,
      "end": 1294.305,
      "text": "就是这个会给至少这些企业认为他们",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 415,
      "start": 1294.305,
      "end": 1296.672,
      "text": "有 better control，然后至少感觉还是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 416,
      "start": 1296.672,
      "end": 1299.869,
      "text": "有 better control。实际有没有的话呢，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 417,
      "start": 1299.869,
      "end": 1302.977,
      "text": "可能也比较难以衡量，因为你就是很主观",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 418,
      "start": 1302.977,
      "end": 1305.551,
      "text": "的事情，它不太容易 apple to apple compare。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 419,
      "start": 1305.551,
      "end": 1307.779,
      "text": "明白。因为我看到的可能就是这些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 420,
      "start": 1307.779,
      "end": 1311.066,
      "text": "Open Source 的 harness 的 framework",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 421,
      "start": 1311.066,
      "end": 1312.599,
      "text": "出来以后，大家测的第一步其实是测的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 422,
      "start": 1312.599,
      "end": 1315.066,
      "text": "这个 token saving，就是看那个 cache 的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 423,
      "start": 1315.066,
      "end": 1317.837,
      "text": "hit rate 到底是有多少。就是你一个 harness",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 424,
      "start": 1317.837,
      "end": 1319.999,
      "text": "系统应该是能做到就是 95% 就可以到",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 425,
      "start": 1319.999,
      "end": 1323.311,
      "text": "那个 cache 上，这样就是 token cost 一下",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 426,
      "start": 1323.311,
      "end": 1325.584,
      "text": "就降下来了对吧。真正的那个你能不能",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 427,
      "start": 1325.584,
      "end": 1329.591,
      "text": "Deliver 那个 High Quality，可能还是要",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 428,
      "start": 1329.591,
      "end": 1332.15,
      "text": "靠那个模型本身。对，然后要靠那个 tool",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 429,
      "start": 1332.15,
      "end": 1334.676,
      "text": "拿回来的这个 quality 好不好。所以我的、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 430,
      "start": 1334.676,
      "end": 1339.03,
      "text": "我可能看到就是说，可能在 cost saving",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 431,
      "start": 1339.03,
      "end": 1341.631,
      "text": "上面我觉得它可能会有一个比较大",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 432,
      "start": 1341.631,
      "end": 1345.005,
      "text": "的区别，但是 quality 可能打一个问号。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 433,
      "start": 1346.023,
      "end": 1348.634,
      "text": "不管怎么说，现在刚才提到的话，现在",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 434,
      "start": 1348.634,
      "end": 1351.318,
      "text": "企业的整个 Agent 的正确率还是不够，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 435,
      "start": 1351.318,
      "end": 1354.535,
      "text": "还是有很大的差距。虽然说有的一些的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 436,
      "start": 1354.535,
      "end": 1358.503,
      "text": "业务流程它对正确率要求没有那么高，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 437,
      "start": 1358.503,
      "end": 1363.091,
      "text": "那些就会更先落地；但是像那些对于正确率",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 438,
      "start": 1363.091,
      "end": 1366.599,
      "text": "要求很高、然后它又需要很低的 cost，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 439,
      "start": 1366.599,
      "end": 1369.377,
      "text": "我觉得这里面的话还有很长的路要走。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 440,
      "start": 1369.377,
      "end": 1372.52,
      "text": "说不定你专注做的，还是你做时间够长了，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 441,
      "start": 1372.52,
      "end": 1375.662,
      "text": "可能就变成下一代的系统了。所以这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 442,
      "start": 1375.662,
      "end": 1379.591,
      "text": "可能也就朝着像所谓的叫做 AI Operating",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 443,
      "start": 1379.591,
      "end": 1383.302,
      "text": "System，就 AI 操作系统、Agent 操作系统。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 444,
      "start": 1383.302,
      "end": 1386.387,
      "text": "对，还有一个名词叫企业 AI 操作系统。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 445,
      "start": 1386.387,
      "end": 1388.896,
      "text": "那这些其实也都是我要这样一个概念，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 446,
      "start": 1388.896,
      "end": 1390.867,
      "text": "说我要有一个这样一个环境，能让我",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 447,
      "start": 1390.867,
      "end": 1393.171,
      "text": "这些 Agent 去做我自己企业的事情。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 448,
      "start": 1393.171,
      "end": 1396.163,
      "text": "确实是。我觉得可能就像我们刚才说这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 449,
      "start": 1396.163,
      "end": 1399.039,
      "text": "Pi 的例子哈，就是它是一个非常迷你版",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 450,
      "start": 1399.039,
      "end": 1403.055,
      "text": "的这么一个 harness，那它的受众可能更",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 451,
      "start": 1403.055,
      "end": 1406.396,
      "text": "多就是我们说开发者觉得，哎呀好小啊，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 452,
      "start": 1406.396,
      "end": 1408.734,
      "text": "就非常 light weight 非常快就可以，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 453,
      "start": 1408.734,
      "end": 1411.718,
      "text": "我作为一个开发者我可以去、去拓展它。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 454,
      "start": 1411.718,
      "end": 1414.55,
      "text": "但可能对于一个社会来说，它可能更多的是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 455,
      "start": 1414.55,
      "end": 1416.964,
      "text": "需要像你说的就是 Deepseek 这样样类型",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 456,
      "start": 1416.964,
      "end": 1419.463,
      "text": "的对吧。他可能要把这个不同的分层啊、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 457,
      "start": 1419.463,
      "end": 1422.622,
      "text": "分级啊，把这个能、这个权力给他分开，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 458,
      "start": 1422.622,
      "end": 1426.39,
      "text": "这样可能大家才会有真正的这种掌控感，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 459,
      "start": 1426.39,
      "end": 1429.545,
      "text": "才能够相信这个模型它做的事情对不对。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 460,
      "start": 1429.545,
      "end": 1432.345,
      "text": "我给你说一个就是我们做的一个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 461,
      "start": 1432.345,
      "end": 1436.167,
      "text": "案例的 use case 很有趣。就是我们聊了",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 462,
      "start": 1436.167,
      "end": 1439.067,
      "text": "很多企业，他们其实会有自己的这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 463,
      "start": 1439.067,
      "end": 1442.451,
      "text": "叫商业逻辑 business logic，然后很多",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 464,
      "start": 1442.451,
      "end": 1444.851,
      "text": "这种 business logic 都是说我要先执行",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 465,
      "start": 1444.851,
      "end": 1446.645,
      "text": "第一步、执行第二步、再执行第三步，如果",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 466,
      "start": 1446.645,
      "end": 1449.862,
      "text": "遇到什么问题，就说我们说的 workflow。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 467,
      "start": 1449.862,
      "end": 1453.008,
      "text": "然后我们让大模型就是说去理解这个，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 468,
      "start": 1453.008,
      "end": 1456.317,
      "text": "看到比如他有这些 flow chart 也好、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 469,
      "start": 1456.317,
      "end": 1459.727,
      "text": "写的这些 manual 也好，他去理解他都可以",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 470,
      "start": 1459.727,
      "end": 1462.362,
      "text": "做到非常好。但是当让一个大模型说你",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 471,
      "start": 1462.362,
      "end": 1465.41,
      "text": "按照这个东西去一步一步执行的时候，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 472,
      "start": 1465.41,
      "end": 1468.105,
      "text": "大模型就挂掉了。我们虽然说很多模型",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 473,
      "start": 1468.105,
      "end": 1470.535,
      "text": "可以在做 instruction following 很正好，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 474,
      "start": 1470.535,
      "end": 1474.708,
      "text": "但是到执行这种真正的、就是实打实的这种",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 475,
      "start": 1474.708,
      "end": 1477.75,
      "text": "API 然后一步一步执行，它就全都乱掉了，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 476,
      "start": 1477.75,
      "end": 1482.101,
      "text": "它无法真正的去 follow 这个 instruction。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 477,
      "start": 1482.101,
      "end": 1486.199,
      "text": "这个感觉这个地方就像你说的，可能需要",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 478,
      "start": 1486.199,
      "end": 1488.709,
      "text": "确实是有一个系统可以保证它对吧，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 479,
      "start": 1488.709,
      "end": 1490.824,
      "text": "按部就班的把它执行好。当然我们说",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 480,
      "start": 1490.824,
      "end": 1493.794,
      "text": "codify 这个东西可能也是一个方式对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 481,
      "start": 1493.794,
      "end": 1497.951,
      "text": "还有举一个例子就是 payment 系统，以后",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 482,
      "start": 1497.951,
      "end": 1502.051,
      "text": "可能大家说拿 agent 去买东西或者什么的。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 483,
      "start": 1502.051,
      "end": 1505.143,
      "text": "然后我聊了天的时候有个朋友遇到的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 484,
      "start": 1505.143,
      "end": 1507.564,
      "text": "问题是说，他曾经有一次跟这个模型",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 485,
      "start": 1507.564,
      "end": 1511.137,
      "text": "说这是我的 credit card number，然后",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 486,
      "start": 1511.137,
      "end": 1515.155,
      "text": "这个大模型就下一次、就是他就直接就",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 487,
      "start": 1515.155,
      "end": 1517.987,
      "text": "会拿 credit card 去帮他结算了对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 488,
      "start": 1517.987,
      "end": 1522.402,
      "text": "就是这个东西因为做 decision 和执行的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 489,
      "start": 1522.402,
      "end": 1525.988,
      "text": "发生在同一个层面对吧，他没有把他剥",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 490,
      "start": 1525.988,
      "end": 1529.475,
      "text": "离开，这个时候人就完全就 lose control",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 491,
      "start": 1529.475,
      "end": 1531.015,
      "text": "了对吧。我觉得好像企业包括我们",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 492,
      "start": 1531.015,
      "end": 1533.673,
      "text": "日常还有很多 work，我觉得是真正让",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 493,
      "start": 1533.673,
      "end": 1536.433,
      "text": "这个可以让他落地的话，有事情要做。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 494,
      "start": 1536.433,
      "end": 1541.18,
      "text": "对，企业最大的问题是要上 scale 对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 495,
      "start": 1541.18,
      "end": 1544.657,
      "text": "你要是 99% 的正确率，100 次错一次它也",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 496,
      "start": 1544.657,
      "end": 1547.53,
      "text": "不能接受，就像你星巴克买咖啡 100 杯",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 497,
      "start": 1547.53,
      "end": 1550.56,
      "text": "做错一次，这也不太能接受。所以企业",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 498,
      "start": 1550.56,
      "end": 1554.066,
      "text": "的要求还是非常非常高的，对于他们",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 499,
      "start": 1554.066,
      "end": 1557.683,
      "text": "不仅是从企业的营收方面考虑，它还有",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 500,
      "start": 1557.683,
      "end": 1561.508,
      "text": "很多的 regulation constraints 对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 501,
      "start": 1561.508,
      "end": 1563.978,
      "text": "那些保险公司、银行，它有的非常非常具体",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 502,
      "start": 1563.978,
      "end": 1567.463,
      "text": "的机构，那都是涉及到 legal 问题，他会要",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 503,
      "start": 1567.463,
      "end": 1573.597,
      "text": "面临罚款，那是比较实打实这个 impact 吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 504,
      "start": 1573.597,
      "end": 1576.904,
      "text": "但是如果你说你省的钱只是说少雇了",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 505,
      "start": 1576.904,
      "end": 1580.209,
      "text": "一些人的话，这个最后这个 ROI 还是不 work。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 506,
      "start": 1580.209,
      "end": 1583.749,
      "text": "所以企业的话，我觉得这个 harness",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 507,
      "start": 1583.749,
      "end": 1586.929,
      "text": "肯定是需要还要升级迭代。然后我还也",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 508,
      "start": 1586.929,
      "end": 1591.889,
      "text": "觉得这个 neurosymbolic 也会是其中",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 509,
      "start": 1591.889,
      "end": 1595.286,
      "text": "一个很重要的一个互动。我不能想象",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 510,
      "start": 1595.286,
      "end": 1597.366,
      "text": "一个至少在企业环境里面一个没有",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 511,
      "start": 1597.366,
      "end": 1601.399,
      "text": "neurosymbolic 这样的一个 harness 系统",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 512,
      "start": 1601.399,
      "end": 1604.749,
      "text": "的存在，不管这个 model 能力提升有多高。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 513,
      "start": 1605.041,
      "end": 1608.15,
      "text": "后来这个可能就是现在系统的一个 gap，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 514,
      "start": 1608.15,
      "end": 1610.548,
      "text": "我们现在还没有看到一个非常有效的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 515,
      "start": 1610.548,
      "end": 1614.481,
      "text": "系统可以做到这一点。你觉得这一块其实",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 516,
      "start": 1614.481,
      "end": 1618.023,
      "text": "可能是一个 one billion dollar question：",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 517,
      "start": 1618.023,
      "end": 1619.771,
      "text": "这个 harness 这个东西会不会真正",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 518,
      "start": 1619.771,
      "end": 1626.057,
      "text": "的就被模型吃掉呢？因为我们看之前、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 519,
      "start": 1626.057,
      "end": 1628.882,
      "text": "刚才我们刚才也说到了这个，可能",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 520,
      "start": 1628.882,
      "end": 1632.438,
      "text": "这个 harness 跟模型一起 train 效果",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 521,
      "start": 1632.438,
      "end": 1634.902,
      "text": "更好对吧。那如果就说大模型公司说，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 522,
      "start": 1634.902,
      "end": 1637.948,
      "text": "那这个 harness 包括我们想说的这些",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 523,
      "start": 1637.948,
      "end": 1640.78,
      "text": "在 wishlist 上面的东西他们都做到了，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 524,
      "start": 1640.78,
      "end": 1643.885,
      "text": "是不是这一块蛋糕就就都没有了？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 525,
      "start": 1645.056,
      "end": 1647.681,
      "text": "我觉得不太会，还是我还是觉得不太会。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 526,
      "start": 1647.681,
      "end": 1649.839,
      "text": "因为还是像刚才说，我觉得 harness",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 527,
      "start": 1649.839,
      "end": 1651.657,
      "text": "系统里面有个重要的部分，就是这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 528,
      "start": 1651.657,
      "end": 1654.681,
      "text": "会有一个 neurosymbolic 系统的存在。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 529,
      "start": 1654.681,
      "end": 1657.558,
      "text": "它还是要去 symbolify 很多很多事情，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 530,
      "start": 1657.558,
      "end": 1660.744,
      "text": "一个原因在于它很高效，另外一个它",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 531,
      "start": 1660.744,
      "end": 1663.657,
      "text": "就是更能做到百分之百的 control。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 532,
      "start": 1663.657,
      "end": 1667.041,
      "text": "所以的话我觉得大模型可以演化、可以演化",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 533,
      "start": 1667.041,
      "end": 1671.169,
      "text": "它的能力更强，它可能变得越来越高效。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 534,
      "start": 1671.169,
      "end": 1675.372,
      "text": "但是从让我们变得更容易 control、更容易",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 535,
      "start": 1675.372,
      "end": 1677.558,
      "text": "让系统变得更 scalable 的话，我觉得这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 536,
      "start": 1677.558,
      "end": 1681.009,
      "text": "harness 系统还是必要存在的。你怎么看？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 537,
      "start": 1681.101,
      "end": 1684.486,
      "text": "我跟你相反，我觉得可能这个东西要被",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 538,
      "start": 1684.486,
      "end": 1686.881,
      "text": "大模型吃掉。codify 那就是把你现在的",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 539,
      "start": 1686.881,
      "end": 1689.789,
      "text": "东西写成 code、code generation，我觉得",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 540,
      "start": 1689.789,
      "end": 1692.394,
      "text": "这个问题现在基本上解决了。然后我是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 541,
      "start": 1692.394,
      "end": 1694.341,
      "text": "觉得我同意的一点就是没有解决的，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 542,
      "start": 1694.341,
      "end": 1697.536,
      "text": "就是怎么做这种 permission escalation，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 543,
      "start": 1697.536,
      "end": 1699.78,
      "text": "什么时候 agent 能够干这件事、不能",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 544,
      "start": 1699.78,
      "end": 1702.3,
      "text": "干这件事，可能还需要一个第三方",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 545,
      "start": 1702.3,
      "end": 1705.194,
      "text": "的一套系统或者 layer 介入对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 546,
      "start": 1705.194,
      "end": 1709.622,
      "text": "是不是 harness 的一部分我不太确定，至少",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 547,
      "start": 1709.622,
      "end": 1713.654,
      "text": "我现在来看的话，它可能是不在 harness",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 548,
      "start": 1713.654,
      "end": 1718.019,
      "text": "系统里面。其实我给你举个例子，像这个现在",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 549,
      "start": 1718.019,
      "end": 1721.721,
      "text": "CPU 芯片对吧，大家都认为 CPU 计算它绝对",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 550,
      "start": 1721.721,
      "end": 1724.724,
      "text": "不会出错，但是其实它也是电压控制。对。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 551,
      "start": 1724.724,
      "end": 1726.004,
      "text": "他也会出错。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 552,
      "start": 1726.148,
      "end": 1728.09,
      "text": "它还要是一个 validation 的东西，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 553,
      "start": 1728.09,
      "end": 1730.821,
      "text": "确保我这个 bit 是没有乱掉的。然后呢",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 554,
      "start": 1730.821,
      "end": 1734.888,
      "text": "那个东西就是 harness。其实我觉得像",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 555,
      "start": 1734.888,
      "end": 1738.964,
      "text": "CPU 这么已经这么规模化、然后这么的、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 556,
      "start": 1739.144,
      "end": 1741.44,
      "text": "这么稳定的一个东西，它也是需要这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 557,
      "start": 1741.44,
      "end": 1745.947,
      "text": "check 的系统的存在。所以我觉得包括电话",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 558,
      "start": 1745.947,
      "end": 1749.064,
      "text": "信号传输、高速信号传输，它全都会有一个……",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 559,
      "start": 1749.064,
      "end": 1749.764,
      "text": "对。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 560,
      "start": 1749.764,
      "end": 1754.69,
      "text": "checksum。但是不、就是说用你的理论",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 561,
      "start": 1754.69,
      "end": 1757.465,
      "text": "打你的话，它就变成了 CPU 的一部分了。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 562,
      "start": 1757.465,
      "end": 1760.587,
      "text": "你在卖 CPU 的时候你就可以卖这个系统对",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 563,
      "start": 1760.587,
      "end": 1764.844,
      "text": "吧，你说你可能要需要另外一套对吧。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 564,
      "start": 1764.844,
      "end": 1767.887,
      "text": "这个东西会不会被这个 Open AI 吃掉？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 565,
      "start": 1767.887,
      "end": 1770.864,
      "text": "确实像你说的可能会被它吃掉。它就是给",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 566,
      "start": 1770.864,
      "end": 1774.04,
      "text": "大模型的时候，以后大模型出来了就自带",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 567,
      "start": 1774.04,
      "end": 1777.666,
      "text": "harness，那我就配套来的，是很有可能发生",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 568,
      "start": 1777.666,
      "end": 1780.242,
      "text": "的吧。是不是需要一个通用的 harness？",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 569,
      "start": 1780.242,
      "end": 1782.305,
      "text": "或者说 harness 就会像变成 Checksum",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 570,
      "start": 1782.305,
      "end": 1784.289,
      "text": "这样的一个技术，就谁也不能 charge",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 571,
      "start": 1784.289,
      "end": 1786.016,
      "text": "钱了，因为它就是一个免费的东西。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 572,
      "start": 1786.016,
      "end": 1788.699,
      "text": "就像 Internet 现在这个技术基本就是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 573,
      "start": 1788.699,
      "end": 1791.339,
      "text": "免费的东西，也有可能变成这个样子。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 574,
      "start": 1791.339,
      "end": 1795.739,
      "text": "终于 OK。好，我们这期 harness 就先聊到这里。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 575,
      "start": 1795.739,
      "end": 1800.266,
      "text": "然后我们说两个上周发生的事情，我可以",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 576,
      "start": 1800.266,
      "end": 1803.915,
      "text": "先来。我先说的一个事就是打脸。我们其实",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 577,
      "start": 1803.915,
      "end": 1807.962,
      "text": "之前没过两期聊到 OpenRouter，它就被",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 578,
      "start": 1807.962,
      "end": 1812.532,
      "text": "Stripe 天价收购了，我们说它没有护城河，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 579,
      "start": 1812.532,
      "end": 1817.179,
      "text": "然后啪啪打脸，所以这个还是蛮有趣的。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 580,
      "start": 1817.267,
      "end": 1820.723,
      "text": "确实是，没有护城河也能卖六个 billion。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 581,
      "start": 1820.723,
      "end": 1823.747,
      "text": "比如说你有 volume 对吧、有用户，我觉得",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 582,
      "start": 1823.747,
      "end": 1826.197,
      "text": "就可以。但是我也是瞎猜测，就是说毕竟",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 583,
      "start": 1826.197,
      "end": 1829.803,
      "text": "你看他们的 business model 很像，就是说",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 584,
      "start": 1829.803,
      "end": 1832.568,
      "text": "都是做这种平台中枢型的东西对吧，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 585,
      "start": 1832.568,
      "end": 1836.398,
      "text": "然后集散。只不过 Stripe 并没有说是",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 586,
      "start": 1836.398,
      "end": 1839.359,
      "text": "在核心的这个 GenAI 的赛道，它通过",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 587,
      "start": 1839.359,
      "end": 1841.974,
      "text": "这个可能也就是说拓宽了它这个赛道，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 588,
      "start": 1841.974,
      "end": 1845.631,
      "text": "并且可以 diversify 它的 business。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 589,
      "start": 1845.631,
      "end": 1847.905,
      "text": "我觉得可能还是这个 Stripe 比较",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 590,
      "start": 1847.905,
      "end": 1852.072,
      "text": "desperate，他就是想要讲一个 AI 的 story，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 591,
      "start": 1852.072,
      "end": 1855.676,
      "text": "然后也是找了一个这么一个非常 unique、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 592,
      "start": 1855.676,
      "end": 1857.789,
      "text": "像你说的一种非常契合的一个东西，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 593,
      "start": 1857.789,
      "end": 1860.241,
      "text": "他们作为其入口。相当于就是花六个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 594,
      "start": 1860.241,
      "end": 1863.338,
      "text": "billion 买一个机会，说不定这个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 595,
      "start": 1863.338,
      "end": 1866.191,
      "text": "下个季度财报就把这钱挣回来了。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 596,
      "start": 1866.191,
      "end": 1870.831,
      "text": "可以看看他们怎么去运行。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 597,
      "start": 1870.831,
      "end": 1873.451,
      "text": "咱们如果是到时候他们 CEO",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 598,
      "start": 1873.451,
      "end": 1875.451,
      "text": "上来讲这事，咱们会回答。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 599,
      "start": 1877.583,
      "end": 1881.497,
      "text": "然后我可能要讲的话，就是这周的话",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 600,
      "start": 1881.497,
      "end": 1887.112,
      "text": "NVidia 宣布他们要投入 6 个 billion，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 601,
      "start": 1887.112,
      "end": 1890.775,
      "text": "这是真金白银 6 个 billion 去做 open",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 602,
      "start": 1890.775,
      "end": 1894.117,
      "text": "weights model。他们的口号要做最好的 US",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 603,
      "start": 1894.117,
      "end": 1898.177,
      "text": "的 open weight model，我觉得这个让我看到",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 604,
      "start": 1898.177,
      "end": 1901.663,
      "text": "还是挺振奋人心的。然后连着这个的话，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 605,
      "start": 1901.663,
      "end": 1903.708,
      "text": "说不定他们下一步就会 launch 一个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 606,
      "start": 1903.708,
      "end": 1905.943,
      "text": "Nvidia 版本的 harness system 给大家用。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 607,
      "start": 1905.943,
      "end": 1907.218,
      "text": "有可能，有可能。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 608,
      "start": 1907.218,
      "end": 1909.469,
      "text": "我觉得还蛮看好的，因为之前还有不少",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 609,
      "start": 1909.469,
      "end": 1912.288,
      "text": "的谷歌的同事都跑到了 NVidia，对。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 610,
      "start": 1912.288,
      "end": 1914.647,
      "text": "然后包括他们的一个 Infra 啊、",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 611,
      "start": 1914.647,
      "end": 1917.527,
      "text": "Training 啊，对，所以还挺拭目以待的。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 612,
      "start": 1917.527,
      "end": 1919.825,
      "text": "现在我们用 Nemotron 体验就特别好。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 613,
      "start": 1919.825,
      "end": 1922.872,
      "text": "现在我们有个 Spark 那个机器，DGX 的 Spark，",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 614,
      "start": 1922.872,
      "end": 1926.271,
      "text": "那个机器跑那个千问 3.8，就比那个那个",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 615,
      "start": 1926.271,
      "end": 1930.767,
      "text": "Nemotron 慢很多，就慢将近 10 倍左右。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 616,
      "start": 1930.767,
      "end": 1933.567,
      "text": "好的，我们这期就聊到这里，大家拜拜。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    },
    {
      "id": 617,
      "start": 1933.567,
      "end": 1934.567,
      "text": "拜拜。",
      "source": "source_caption",
      "timing_uncertain": false
    }
  ]
}