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  "text": "The AI boom means that data centers are being built at an unprecedented pace around the world\nand Isaac, one country in Asia where the build-out is really obvious is Malaysia.\nThat's right, Mariko. Malaysia has emerged as an AI hub in Southeast Asia.\nThe country produces a lot of components that go into chips that help power AI technology.\nThe country has also been aggressively building data centers.\nNow, the economy in Malaysia is expanding thanks to this boom,\nbut there's some pushback too.\nYeah, and the big question is whether or not those concerns about data center are justified.\nAnd also, how is the pushback against them affecting Southeast Asia's effort to get a slice of the AI boom?\nEvery application you use, whether it's with AI or without AI, has to come from somewhere.\nIt's not just a little computation that's done in the cloud, right?\nThe cloud is actually hosted in a physical location called a data center.\nOne of the things that in these data centers they have is that they will have a lot of network cables, a lot of what they call server racks that is responsible for the computation, and then also the cooling, the energy requirements on there.\nAnd usually the facilities are managed by very, very few people.\nSo the reason why that has been going was because the compute usage has gone up significantly, probably powered a lot by ChatGPT, Cloud, or every other AI application out there.\nAnd that is why we need to, because we need data centers and we need large sources of land,\nyou're going to see large sources of construction, there is changes in the environment,\nchanges in maybe many normal people's daily expenses.\nSo that's why it's now become a big subject.\nYeah, indeed.\nAnd yeah, because I was looking at, I think in the UK, there were some protests against\nthose data centers being built in your backyard, also in the United States.\nBut Isaac, here in Asia, Malaysia kind of stands out in terms of the number of data centers being built.\nHow did Malaysia become such a hub in terms of this AI boom?\nI think the big contributor is back in 2019 when Singapore implemented this temporary ban.\nSo developers had to look elsewhere to put their data centers.\nAnd so they looked into neighboring Malaysia, Johor.\nIts proximity to Singapore makes it a perfect place to build data centers,\nwhich you can see now, 85% of Malaysia's data centres are located in Johor.\nFurthermore, the government put out incentives\nthat sort of draw in foreign investors to invest in the country.\nSo Bernard, Isaac just talked about Singapore's restrictions on data centres back in 2019.\nCan you just explain why that was?\nIt's actually not so much a ban, it's kind of a moratorium\nbecause I think the Singapore government is very prudent\nabout how they're thinking about the electricity\noutages that have been going on.\nThey're mostly caused because of a spike in demand\nin computing.\nAnd I think post 2024,\nwhen there was also the US banning China\nfor having the NVIDIA chips\nand a lot of the Chinese founders\nfrom the Chinese tech companies,\nthey require another place\nwhere they could actually have\na source of good compute.\nSo that also drives in a lot of foreign director\ninvestments into Malaysia as a result. So it's a combination of factors. We also talk about, say,\nthings like legislation changes. Somewhere between 2019 to 2023, a lot of the Southeast Asia\ncountries started to have what we call data sovereignty laws. So data sovereignty laws say,\nfor example, Malaysia said we need to have something like the data must be hosted in Malaysia.\nIndonesia certainly say the same. So it also prompts the hyperscalers to say, okay,\nwe probably need in order to allow our businesses to operate in these countries,\nwe have to set up the data centers.\nAnd that build up, I think, started as of when that period started.\nAnd I have to say, they don't look that pretty to have in your back garden.\nBut Isaac, can you explain?\nI mean, it's not just geography of where Malaysia was, right?\nThat all the investments started pouring into the country\nbecause it has been producing a lot of components, tech components.\nSo how have all these data centers being built? How has it helped the economy?\nAnd can you just explain the background of Malaysia's economy?\nYeah, like billions of dollars are being poured into Malaysia's economy.\nAnd according to the International Monetary Fund, this year alone, it's expected for Malaysia's GDP to grow by at least 4.7%.\nNow, the government obviously has a dream of being at the frontier of this AI revolution.\nSo it's investing a lot. It's offering eligible companies incentives.\nFor example, some of them could apply for income tax exemptions.\nOthers could even apply, could get like investment allowances.\nSo all these incentives are the government's steps to make that dream a reality.\nBut of course, there has been quite a lot of protests and you actually spoke to somebody.\nSo can you just tell us what she told you, what her concerns are?\nYeah, I spoke to Itha Malayana.\nShe's a 26-year-old English teacher.\nSo in July, she saw the news that a data center was being proposed in her community.\nAnd she basically just said, no, not in my backyard.\nAnd that concern is because she saw what's happening in the US, the huge backlash against\ndata centers, and she didn't want that to be in her community.\nSo she goes online and she creates this petition.\nAnd what really stood out for me is that in that petition, she started with a really famous\nquote about how when the last tree falls, people will realize that they can't eat money.\nAnd I asked her about that.\nShe said that quote basically encapsulates everything that she's standing against the\ndata centers.\nAnd this is what she has to say.\nOne of the justifications of data centers is that local industry workers would get trained\nand hopefully get to develop this industry in Malaysia.\nBut I think I've read very briefly on this, but it seems like that's not going to be the\ncase at all.\nLike they're just going to set up these servers and then have a few people managing it.\nBut it's not really going to be like a skill transfer thing.\nI could justify using AI in like medicine or like, I don't know, astrophysics.\nBut why do we need it to decide what we want for lunch or solve a relationship problem?\nBernard, what do you think about what Aoife said?\nI think there are a few parts of what it comes to when a data center comes online.\nSo before the data center is actually built, that actually brings in what we call construction jobs.\nNow, once the data center is complete and completed,\nthen the management of the data center is taken over by, say, the hyperscaler.\nThey typically, it's actually very few people, as she rightfully pointed.\nSo what happens here is that then you have a few workers that is actually able to, if there's any anomalous things happening within the data center, they will be the person to resolve the issues on that.\nBut then when you look out to the bigger economy, right, then you think about what the data center is actually driving.\nThe data center, the real focus is actually to drive more what we call the digital economy.\nSo the digital economy could be in the form of, say,\nmaybe knowledge-based work.\nIt could be new kinds of jobs that may be created out of this AI.\nI know we are now in what we call a transition stage.\nAnd so the big fear is the job displacement is larger than the job creation.\nYeah.\nThe only answer to what she's saying is the creation of new jobs.\nIs there going to be more than or less?\nThat question, I don't know.\nI would prefer to be much more humble to say I don't know.\nBut I think we've seen different iterations of technological change.\nAnd so far, every time it happened,\nwe seem to end up creating more jobs.\nIf you're just looking at this current time period,\nwhen's the data center built?\nShe's effectively right on that.\nBut how the data center creates value\nfor the digital economy within that country,\nthat is not so clear to me.\nBut would that be within that country?\nBecause couldn't you argue that those new jobs created,\nthanks to the AI boom, might be outside of Malaysia?\nSo that was the whole reason why every country\nnow has their own Data Sovereignty Act.\nYes, you can host other data from other parts of the world,\nbut you still have a sustainable holding.\nAnd every business out there who needs,\nwhether it's a neocloud or hyperscaler,\nthey have to invest in Malaysia in order to get that part of the economy.\nAnd they have to drive the local economy\nbecause what they don't really want is having everyone,\nthe local communities holding pitchforks and say,\nhey, you know, we want to burn down the data center.\nThat is also a cause of concern for them.\nAnd I think that stability also becomes part of the conversation.\nHow has the Malaysian government been speaking about this ambition,\ntheir ambition to be the AI hub, but also concerns from those local residents over jobs,\nbut also about the environment. I previously mentioned that Johor currently houses about 80\nto 85% of the data centers in Malaysia. So in the state of Johor, the government has banned two tiers\nof data centers. First is a tier one and tier two. Those are data centers which consume about 50\nmillion litres of water a day. And that amount is basically about, it could satisfy the people's\ndaily drinking needs above 25 million people. So the government has stopped those data centres\nfrom being built. It has also introduced penalties where if the data centre operator said that\nthis is the amount of electricity it's going to use per year, if it doesn't need 85% of it,\nthey're going to find the operator.\nThere's actually a metric to look at data centers.\nIt's called power usage effectiveness,\nwhat they call the PUE metric.\nSo if you think about, say,\ncurrently Singapore is mandating\nthat all data centers must be below\nwhat is called 1.25 PUE.\nOkay.\nMalaysia, I think it's 1.4.\nSo there are two aspects of the problem.\nSo one of them is the water problem.\nThe water problem is real\nif they do not try to recycle the water for the data center's cooling.\nSo there are actually already known solutions to that.\nSo there is something called StatePoint Liquid Cooling.\nA couple of companies actually started in the US.\nBut how do they do it?\nSo basically, you reflux the water.\nThere is an entire recycling technology on that.\nThe more concerning part of this is actually energy.\nBecause of the usage of AI is exponentially growing,\nthe energy usage is also growing exponentially\nand we are actually filling it.\nSo a lot of it is due to poor demand forecasting of power.\nIf you think about, look at the region as a whole,\ncountries, I mean, Singapore is already doing that.\nThe next data centre you build,\nyou have to have a certain energy,\nthat means the energy you use,\nsome parts of it must come from renewables.\nThen as you go to say Malaysia, for example,\nthen the question is what kind of,\nthey definitely have energy,\nthey have petroleum, oil,\nso they can hydrocarbon so you can power some part of it then the question is do they want to\nrely on other mixes because the there is no way now that uh just by using a carbon they are able\nto run that they also you also bring about the increase of climate change as well and malaysia\nhas the ambition to be that ai hub in southeast asia and it really wants to achieve that so i\nthink the government needs to balance between addressing the people's concerns while also\ntaking realistic steps to make those dreams a reality of being an AI hub. So the Malaysian\ngovernment, the Prime Minister announced that the young people will be able to access a three-month\nfree subscription to some of the AI models and that is basically to allow them to explore the\nAI models, play with it and even to perhaps boost their creativity and improve their digital skills.\nSo the government is taking an active step into making the country embrace AI.\nBut I guess we'll see how the government addresses the people's concerns.\nWill they keep building data centers for now with, I guess, stricter regulations, Isaac?\nI think so, honestly, because the people's concerns about data centers are valid.\nAnd for example, you heard from Ether herself that she said that she doesn't want Malaysia to become like the US,\nwhere the people actively push back against data centers\nbecause she's questioning why is data centers, AI, relevant or even important?\nBecause we've heard from the AI company CEOs themselves\nthat they say that this AI revolution is inevitable.\nBut she's questioning that.\nSo I think we'll hear more and more people having similar concerns as Ether.\nOne interesting example of a country that's in this AI revolution\nthat's not very much we would think about is China.\nso where China is pretty effective\nis the energy infrastructure\nso they have built up\nmost of the energy infrastructure\nthey have built up\nmost of the\nrenewable energy mix\nwhat they don't have\nis now the chips\nand the AI models are lagging\nbasically 3 to 6 months\ndepending on who you talk to\non that\nbut if you look at say\nthere was a survey done\n80% of Chinese\nare hopeful about the AI future\nand then if you do the same survey\nin the US it's only 31%\nSo the question is, what's the big difference, right?\nSo I think a lot of it is in whether we're optimistic\nthat the AI will bring about sort of a growth of a new economy.\nAnd there are some things that I think people take it to the logical extreme.\nIf AI was to do everything of this, then what should humans do, right?\nI think the way I would probably want to moving ahead,\nI think that there is actually human creativity is actually infinite.\nThe demand for human creativity is actually infinite.\nAnd I think for that, because of that, even if AI can automate most of the things,\nthere are still things for us to do.\nYeah, really insightful conversation.\nThank you so much for joining me, Bernad and Isaac.",
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      "text": "which you can see now, 85% of Malaysia's data centres are located in Johor.",
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      "text": "that sort of draw in foreign investors to invest in the country.",
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      "text": "So Bernard, Isaac just talked about Singapore's restrictions on data centres back in 2019.",
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      "text": "Can you just explain why that was?",
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      "text": "It's actually not so much a ban, it's kind of a moratorium",
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      "text": "because I think the Singapore government is very prudent",
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      "text": "investments into Malaysia as a result. So it's a combination of factors. We also talk about, say,",
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      "text": "And I have to say, they don't look that pretty to have in your back garden.",
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      "text": "because it has been producing a lot of components, tech components.",
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      "text": "Yeah, like billions of dollars are being poured into Malaysia's economy.",
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      "text": "And according to the International Monetary Fund, this year alone, it's expected for Malaysia's GDP to grow by at least 4.7%.",
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      "text": "Now, the government obviously has a dream of being at the frontier of this AI revolution.",
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      "text": "But then when you look out to the bigger economy, right, then you think about what the data center is actually driving.",
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      "text": "Is there going to be more than or less?",
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      "text": "That question, I don't know.",
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      "text": "thanks to the AI boom, might be outside of Malaysia?",
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      "text": "but also about the environment. I previously mentioned that Johor currently houses about 80",
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      "text": "to 85% of the data centers in Malaysia. So in the state of Johor, the government has banned two tiers",
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      "text": "Malaysia, I think it's 1.4.",
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      "text": "So there are two aspects of the problem.",
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      "text": "So one of them is the water problem.",
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      "text": "if they do not try to recycle the water for the data center's cooling.",
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      "text": "So there are actually already known solutions to that.",
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      "text": "So there is something called StatePoint Liquid Cooling.",
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      "text": "A couple of companies actually started in the US.",
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      "text": "The more concerning part of this is actually energy.",
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      "text": "So a lot of it is due to poor demand forecasting of power.",
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      "text": "that means the energy you use,",
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      "text": "some parts of it must come from renewables.",
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      "text": "Then as you go to say Malaysia, for example,",
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      "text": "rely on other mixes because the there is no way now that uh just by using a carbon they are able",
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      "text": "to run that they also you also bring about the increase of climate change as well and malaysia",
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      "text": "has the ambition to be that ai hub in southeast asia and it really wants to achieve that so i",
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      "text": "think the government needs to balance between addressing the people's concerns while also",
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      "text": "taking realistic steps to make those dreams a reality of being an AI hub. So the Malaysian",
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      "text": "government, the Prime Minister announced that the young people will be able to access a three-month",
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      "text": "free subscription to some of the AI models and that is basically to allow them to explore the",
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      "text": "AI models, play with it and even to perhaps boost their creativity and improve their digital skills.",
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      "text": "So the government is taking an active step into making the country embrace AI.",
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      "text": "Will they keep building data centers for now with, I guess, stricter regulations, Isaac?",
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      "text": "I think so, honestly, because the people's concerns about data centers are valid.",
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      "text": "And for example, you heard from Ether herself that she said that she doesn't want Malaysia to become like the US,",
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      "text": "Thank you so much for joining me, Bernad and Isaac.",
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