0:00.000–0:05.340
The AI boom means that data centers are being built at an unprecedented pace around the world
0:05.340–0:09.873
and Isaac, one country in Asia where the build-out is really obvious is Malaysia.
0:10.140–0:11.407
That's right, Mariko.
0:11.407–0:14.273
Malaysia has emerged as an AI hub in Southeast Asia.
0:14.520–0:19.760
The country produces a lot of components that go into chips that help power AI technology.
0:20.220–0:23.753
The country has also been aggressively building data centers.
0:24.080–0:27.547
Now, the economy in Malaysia is expanding thanks to this boom,
0:27.547–0:29.860
but there's some pushback too.
0:30.000–0:35.133
Yeah, and the big question is whether or not those concerns about data center are justified.
0:35.320–0:41.680
And also, how is the pushback against them affecting Southeast Asia's effort to get a slice of the AI boom?
0:45.540–0:49.437
Every application you use, whether it's with AI or without AI,
0:49.437–0:51.160
has to come from somewhere.
0:51.500–0:55.233
It's not just a little computation that's done in the cloud, right?
0:55.233–0:59.300
The cloud is actually hosted in a physical location called a data center.
0:59.300–1:04.767
One of the things that in these data centers they have is that they will have a lot of network cables,
1:04.767–1:09.059
a lot of what they call server racks that is responsible for the computation,
1:09.059–1:12.580
and then also the cooling, the energy requirements on there.
1:12.680–1:16.280
And usually the facilities are managed by very, very few people.
1:16.280–1:19.276
So the reason why that has been going was because
1:19.276–1:22.672
the compute usage has gone up significantly,
1:22.672–1:25.801
probably powered a lot by ChatGPT, Cloud,
1:25.801–1:28.840
or every other AI application out there.
1:28.980–1:33.228
And that is why we need to, because we need data centers and
1:33.228–1:35.440
we need large sources of land,
1:35.660–1:38.527
you're going to see large sources of construction,
1:38.527–1:40.593
there is changes in the environment,
1:40.593–1:44.560
changes in maybe many normal people's daily expenses.
1:44.800–1:47.200
So that's why it's now become a big subject.
1:47.200–1:48.000
Yeah, indeed.
1:48.000–1:50.867
And yeah, because I was looking at, I think in the UK,
1:50.867–1:52.733
there were some protests against
1:52.733–1:55.467
those data centers being built in your backyard,
1:55.467–1:56.933
also in the United States.
1:56.933–1:58.267
But Isaac, here in Asia,
1:58.267–2:02.600
Malaysia kind of stands out in terms of the number of data centers being built.
2:02.700–2:05.960
How did Malaysia become such a hub in terms of this AI boom?
2:06.040–2:08.832
I think the big contributor is back in 2019 when
2:08.832–2:11.480
Singapore implemented this temporary ban.
2:11.620–2:15.220
So developers had to look elsewhere to put their data centers.
2:15.460–2:18.460
And so they looked into neighboring Malaysia, Johor.
2:18.460–2:23.180
Its proximity to Singapore makes it a perfect place to build data centers,
2:23.180–2:24.614
which you can see now,
2:24.614–2:28.120
85% of Malaysia's data centres are located in Johor.
2:28.420–2:31.640
Furthermore, the government put out incentives
2:31.640–2:35.460
that sort of draw in foreign investors to invest in the country.
2:35.840–2:41.420
So Bernard, Isaac just talked about Singapore's restrictions on data centres back in 2019.
2:41.540–2:43.407
Can you just explain why that was?
2:43.407–2:46.540
It's actually not so much a ban, it's kind of a moratorium
2:46.540–2:49.740
because I think the Singapore government is very prudent
2:49.740–2:52.540
about how they're thinking about the electricity
2:52.540–2:55.040
outages that have been going on.
2:55.140–2:57.940
They're mostly caused because of a spike in demand
2:57.940–2:58.740
in computing.
2:58.760–3:01.840
And I think post 2024,
3:02.420–3:05.500
when there was also the US banning China
3:05.500–3:07.060
for having the NVIDIA chips
3:07.060–3:09.060
and a lot of the Chinese founders
3:09.060–3:11.600
from the Chinese tech companies,
3:11.700–3:13.280
they require another place
3:13.280–3:15.013
where they could actually have
3:15.013–3:16.413
a source of good compute.
3:16.540–3:19.140
So that also drives in a lot of foreign director
3:19.140–3:21.473
investments into Malaysia as a result. So
3:21.473–3:24.760
it's a combination of factors. We also talk about, say,
3:24.900–3:30.012
things like legislation changes. Somewhere between 2019 to 2023,
3:30.012–3:32.020
a lot of the Southeast Asia
3:32.020–3:35.487
countries started to have what we call data sovereignty laws.
3:35.487–3:37.153
So data sovereignty laws say,
3:37.153–3:42.353
for example, Malaysia said we need to have something like the data must be hosted in Malaysia.
3:42.740–3:45.207
Indonesia certainly say the same. So it also
3:45.207–3:47.407
prompts the hyperscalers to say, okay,
3:47.407–3:52.340
we probably need in order to allow our businesses to operate in these countries,
3:52.520–3:54.860
we have to set up the data centers.
3:55.040–3:59.460
And that build up, I think, started as of when that period started.
3:59.660–4:00.593
And I have to say,
4:00.593–4:03.660
they don't look that pretty to have in your back garden.
4:03.660–4:05.660
But Isaac, can you explain?
4:06.300–4:09.700
I mean, it's not just geography of where Malaysia was, right?
4:09.700–4:12.967
That all the investments started pouring into the country
4:12.967–4:16.767
because it has been producing a lot of components, tech components.
4:16.860–4:19.870
So how have all these data centers being built?
4:19.870–4:21.800
How has it helped the economy?
4:21.980–4:25.513
And can you just explain the background of Malaysia's economy?
4:25.513–4:29.647
Yeah, like billions of dollars are being poured into Malaysia's economy.
4:29.647–4:32.513
And according to the International Monetary Fund,
4:32.513–4:33.483
this year alone,
4:33.483–4:37.360
it's expected for Malaysia's GDP to grow by at least 4.7%.
4:37.360–4:42.320
Now, the government obviously has a dream of being at the frontier of this AI revolution.
4:42.320–4:46.320
So it's investing a lot. It's offering eligible companies incentives.
4:46.320–4:50.580
For example, some of them could apply for income tax exemptions.
4:51.000–4:54.600
Others could even apply, could get like investment allowances.
4:54.780–4:59.660
So all these incentives are the government's steps to make that dream a reality.
5:00.380–5:03.505
But of course, there has been quite a lot of protests and
5:03.505–5:05.340
you actually spoke to somebody.
5:05.460–5:09.360
So can you just tell us what she told you, what her concerns are?
5:09.780–5:11.513
Yeah, I spoke to Itha Malayana.
5:11.513–5:13.647
She's a 26-year-old English teacher.
5:13.647–5:18.180
So in July, she saw the news that a data center was being proposed in her community.
5:18.560–5:21.700
And she basically just said, no, not in my backyard.
5:22.120–5:26.308
And that concern is because she saw what's happening in the US,
5:26.308–5:28.080
the huge backlash against
5:28.080–5:31.480
data centers, and she didn't want that to be in her community.
5:31.480–5:34.213
So she goes online and she creates this petition.
5:34.460–5:37.593
And what really stood out for me is that in that petition,
5:37.593–5:39.393
she started with a really famous
5:39.393–5:41.907
quote about how when the last tree falls,
5:41.907–5:45.080
people will realize that they can't eat money.
5:45.080–5:46.547
And I asked her about that.
5:46.547–5:51.600
She said that quote basically encapsulates everything that she's standing against the
5:51.600–5:53.020
data centers.
5:53.020–5:54.687
And this is what she has to say.
5:54.687–6:01.060
One of the justifications of data centers is that local industry workers would get trained
6:01.060–6:04.480
and hopefully get to develop this industry in Malaysia.
6:04.480–6:07.238
But I think I've read very briefly on this, but
6:07.238–6:09.560
it seems like that's not going to be the
6:09.560–6:10.227
case at all.
6:10.320–6:13.120
Like they're just going to set up these servers and
6:13.120–6:15.053
then have a few people managing it.
6:15.053–6:18.320
But it's not really going to be like a skill transfer thing.
6:18.320–6:21.053
I could justify using AI in like medicine or like,
6:21.053–6:22.920
I don't know, astrophysics.
6:22.920–6:29.040
But why do we need it to decide what we want for lunch or solve a relationship problem?
6:29.400–6:32.133
Bernard, what do you think about what Aoife said?
6:32.133–6:35.537
I think there are a few parts of what it comes to when
6:35.537–6:37.660
a data center comes online.
6:38.240–6:40.707
So before the data center is actually built,
6:40.707–6:43.840
that actually brings in what we call construction jobs.
6:43.840–6:46.773
Now, once the data center is complete and completed,
6:47.080–6:50.222
then the management of the data center is taken over by,
6:50.222–6:51.520
say, the hyperscaler.
6:51.800–6:54.467
They typically, it's actually very few people,
6:54.467–6:56.000
as she rightfully pointed.
6:56.000–6:57.800
So what happens here is that then
6:57.800–7:00.734
you have a few workers that is actually able to,
7:00.734–7:05.464
if there's any anomalous things happening within the data center,
7:05.464–7:09.180
they will be the person to resolve the issues on that.
7:09.480–7:12.147
But then when you look out to the bigger economy,
7:12.147–7:16.013
right, then you think about what the data center is actually driving.
7:16.013–7:16.947
The data center,
7:16.947–7:21.013
the real focus is actually to drive more what we call the digital economy.
7:21.013–7:23.813
So the digital economy could be in the form of, say,
7:23.920–7:26.040
maybe knowledge-based work.
7:26.160–7:29.900
It could be new kinds of jobs that may be created out of this AI.
7:30.000–7:32.800
I know we are now in what we call a transition stage.
7:32.900–7:39.300
And so the big fear is the job displacement is larger than the job creation.
7:40.000–7:40.520
Yeah.
7:40.780–7:44.460
The only answer to what she's saying is the creation of new jobs.
7:44.620–7:46.687
Is there going to be more than or less?
7:47.120–7:48.720
That question, I don't know.
7:48.720–7:52.800
I would prefer to be much more humble to say I don't know.
7:53.020–7:58.640
But I think we've seen different iterations of technological change.
8:00.000–8:02.260
And so far, every time it happened,
8:02.420–8:04.420
we seem to end up creating more jobs.
8:04.800–8:07.920
If you're just looking at this current time period,
8:08.020–8:09.687
when's the data center built?
8:09.687–8:11.553
She's effectively right on that.
8:11.553–8:13.620
But how the data center creates value
8:13.620–8:16.153
for the digital economy within that country,
8:16.153–8:17.700
that is not so clear to me.
8:17.800–8:19.933
But would that be within that country?
8:19.933–8:23.067
Because couldn't you argue that those new jobs created,
8:23.067–8:26.180
thanks to the AI boom, might be outside of Malaysia?
8:26.280–8:29.200
So that was the whole reason why every country
8:29.200–8:31.400
now has their own Data Sovereignty Act.
8:31.400–8:34.600
Yes, you can host other data from other parts of the world,
8:34.600–8:37.700
but you still have a sustainable holding.
8:38.120–8:40.320
And every business out there who needs,
8:40.380–8:42.647
whether it's a neocloud or hyperscaler,
8:42.647–8:46.580
they have to invest in Malaysia in order to get that part of the economy.
8:46.720–8:48.920
And they have to drive the local economy
8:48.920–8:52.300
because what they don't really want is having everyone,
8:52.560–8:55.427
the local communities holding pitchforks and say,
8:55.427–8:58.227
hey, you know, we want to burn down the data center.
8:58.227–9:00.427
That is also a cause of concern for them.
9:00.600–9:04.267
And I think that stability also becomes part of the conversation.
9:04.267–9:08.540
How has the Malaysian government been speaking about this ambition,
9:08.540–9:11.397
their ambition to be the AI hub, but also
9:11.397–9:14.860
concerns from those local residents over jobs,
9:14.860–9:16.798
but also about the environment.
9:16.798–9:20.460
I previously mentioned that Johor currently houses about 80
9:20.460–9:22.782
to 85% of the data centers in Malaysia. So
9:22.782–9:26.060
in the state of Johor, the government has banned two tiers
9:26.060–9:29.055
of data centers. First is a tier one and tier two.
9:29.055–9:31.900
Those are data centers which consume about 50
9:31.900–9:34.672
million litres of water a day. And
9:34.672–9:39.820
that amount is basically about, it could satisfy the people's
9:39.820–9:43.500
daily drinking needs above 25 million people. So
9:43.500–9:47.000
the government has stopped those data centres
9:47.000–9:48.671
from being built. It has also
9:48.671–9:52.500
introduced penalties where if the data centre operator said that
9:52.500–9:56.692
this is the amount of electricity it's going to use per year,
9:56.692–9:58.620
if it doesn't need 85% of it,
9:58.620–10:00.620
they're going to find the operator.
10:00.800–10:03.600
There's actually a metric to look at data centers.
10:03.600–10:05.867
It's called power usage effectiveness,
10:05.867–10:07.533
what they call the PUE metric.
10:07.533–10:09.720
So if you think about, say,
10:10.020–10:12.240
currently Singapore is mandating
10:12.240–10:15.160
that all data centers must be below
10:15.160–10:17.400
what is called 1.25 PUE.
10:17.920–10:18.420
Okay.
10:18.580–10:20.220
Malaysia, I think it's 1.4.
10:20.560–10:22.760
So there are two aspects of the problem.
10:22.760–10:24.693
So one of them is the water problem.
10:24.693–10:26.120
The water problem is real
10:26.120–10:31.360
if they do not try to recycle the water for the data center's cooling.
10:31.820–10:36.200
So there are actually already known solutions to that.
10:36.400–10:39.600
So there is something called StatePoint Liquid Cooling.
10:39.600–10:42.333
A couple of companies actually started in the US.
10:42.333–10:43.467
But how do they do it?
10:43.467–10:45.467
So basically, you reflux the water.
10:45.467–10:48.200
There is an entire recycling technology on that.
10:48.420–10:51.780
The more concerning part of this is actually energy.
10:52.900–10:55.833
Because of the usage of AI is exponentially growing,
10:55.833–10:58.500
the energy usage is also growing exponentially
10:58.500–11:00.860
and we are actually filling it.
11:01.200–11:05.640
So a lot of it is due to poor demand forecasting of power.
11:05.840–11:08.507
If you think about, look at the region as a whole,
11:08.507–11:11.440
countries, I mean, Singapore is already doing that.
11:11.440–11:13.173
The next data centre you build,
11:13.173–11:15.040
you have to have a certain energy,
11:15.040–11:16.707
that means the energy you use,
11:16.707–11:19.107
some parts of it must come from renewables.
11:19.107–11:21.507
Then as you go to say Malaysia, for example,
11:21.507–11:23.373
then the question is what kind of,
11:23.373–11:25.040
they definitely have energy,
11:25.040–11:26.507
they have petroleum, oil,
11:26.507–11:29.773
so they can hydrocarbon so you can power some part of it then
11:29.773–11:31.440
the question is do they want to
11:31.440–11:32.973
rely on other mixes because
11:32.973–11:36.820
the there is no way now that uh just by using a carbon they are able
11:36.820–11:38.565
to run that they also you also
11:38.565–11:42.420
bring about the increase of climate change as well and malaysia
11:42.420–11:45.582
has the ambition to be that ai hub in southeast asia and
11:45.582–11:47.620
it really wants to achieve that so i
11:47.620–11:52.753
think the government needs to balance between addressing the people's concerns while also
11:52.753–11:57.090
taking realistic steps to make those dreams a reality of being an AI hub.
11:57.090–11:58.180
So the Malaysian
11:58.180–12:04.660
government, the Prime Minister announced that the young people will be able to access a three-month
12:04.660–12:07.580
free subscription to some of the AI models and
12:07.580–12:10.500
that is basically to allow them to explore the
12:10.500–12:15.306
AI models, play with it and even to perhaps boost their creativity and
12:15.306–12:17.460
improve their digital skills.
12:17.460–12:22.520
So the government is taking an active step into making the country embrace AI.
12:22.740–12:26.980
But I guess we'll see how the government addresses the people's concerns.
12:27.760–12:30.795
Will they keep building data centers for now with,
12:30.795–12:33.180
I guess, stricter regulations, Isaac?
12:33.440–12:35.107
I think so, honestly, because
12:35.107–12:38.040
the people's concerns about data centers are valid.
12:38.040–12:38.973
And for example,
12:38.973–12:44.240
you heard from Ether herself that she said that she doesn't want Malaysia to become like the US,
12:44.240–12:47.440
where the people actively push back against data centers
12:47.440–12:50.561
because she's questioning why is data centers, AI,
12:50.561–12:52.460
relevant or even important?
12:52.460–12:56.420
Because we've heard from the AI company CEOs themselves
12:56.420–12:59.353
that they say that this AI revolution is inevitable.
12:59.620–13:01.220
But she's questioning that.
13:01.320–13:02.943
So I think we'll hear more and
13:02.943–13:05.580
more people having similar concerns as Ether.
13:06.000–13:09.700
One interesting example of a country that's in this AI revolution
13:09.700–13:12.560
that's not very much we would think about is China.
13:12.560–13:15.820
so where China is pretty effective
13:15.820–13:17.520
is the energy infrastructure
13:17.520–13:18.653
so they have built up
13:18.653–13:20.587
most of the energy infrastructure
13:20.587–13:21.587
they have built up
13:21.587–13:22.187
most of the
13:22.187–13:23.460
renewable energy mix
13:23.460–13:24.620
what they don't have
13:24.620–13:25.487
is now the chips
13:25.487–13:27.160
and the AI models are lagging
13:27.160–13:28.820
basically 3 to 6 months
13:28.820–13:30.353
depending on who you talk to
13:30.353–13:31.120
on that
13:31.120–13:32.820
but if you look at say
13:32.820–13:34.400
there was a survey done
13:34.400–13:36.420
80% of Chinese
13:36.420–13:38.320
are hopeful about the AI future
13:38.320–13:40.600
and then if you do the same survey
13:40.600–13:42.080
in the US it's only 31%
13:42.080–13:45.080
So the question is, what's the big difference, right?
13:45.080–13:48.300
So I think a lot of it is in whether we're optimistic
13:48.300–13:52.820
that the AI will bring about sort of a growth of a new economy.
13:53.660–13:59.520
And there are some things that I think people take it to the logical extreme.
13:59.840–14:03.860
If AI was to do everything of this, then what should humans do, right?
14:04.180–14:07.920
I think the way I would probably want to moving ahead,
14:07.920–14:12.260
I think that there is actually human creativity is actually infinite.
14:12.580–14:15.647
The demand for human creativity is actually infinite.
14:15.647–14:17.939
And I think for that, because of that,
14:17.939–14:20.760
even if AI can automate most of the things,
14:21.100–14:23.033
there are still things for us to do.
14:23.033–14:25.300
Yeah, really insightful conversation.
14:25.300–14:27.000
Thank you so much for joining me, Bernad and Isaac.
0:00.000–0:05.340
The AI boom means that data centers are being built at an unprecedented pace around the world
人工智慧熱潮意味著全球正以前所未有的速度建設數據中心
0:05.340–0:09.873
and Isaac, one country in Asia where the build-out is really obvious is Malaysia.
艾薩克,在亞洲,馬來西亞是數據中心建設最為顯著的國家之一。
0:10.140–0:11.407
That's right, Mariko.
沒錯,真理子。
0:11.407–0:14.273
Malaysia has emerged as an AI hub in Southeast Asia.
馬來西亞已崛起為東南亞的人工智慧樞紐。
0:14.520–0:19.760
The country produces a lot of components that go into chips that help power AI technology.
該國生產大量用於製造助力量產人工智慧技術的晶片零組件。
0:20.220–0:23.753
The country has also been aggressively building data centers.
該國也積極建設數據中心
0:24.080–0:27.547
Now, the economy in Malaysia is expanding thanks to this boom,
現在,得益於這場熱潮,馬來西亞經濟正在擴張,
0:27.547–0:29.860
but there's some pushback too.
但也出現了一些反彈。
0:30.000–0:35.133
Yeah, and the big question is whether or not those concerns about data center are justified.
是的,而最大的問題在於,人們對數據中心的擔憂是否合理。
0:35.320–0:41.680
And also, how is the pushback against them affecting Southeast Asia's effort to get a slice of the AI boom?
此外,這種反彈如何影響東南亞在人工智慧熱潮中分一杯羹的努力?
0:45.540–0:49.437
Every application you use, whether it's with AI or without AI,
你使用的每個應用程式,無論是否涉及人工智慧,
0:49.437–0:51.160
has to come from somewhere.
都必須來自某個地方。
0:51.500–0:55.233
It's not just a little computation that's done in the cloud, right?
這不僅僅是在雲端進行的一些計算,對吧?
0:55.233–0:59.300
The cloud is actually hosted in a physical location called a data center.
雲端實際上託管在一個稱為數據中心的物理位置。
0:59.300–1:04.767
One of the things that in these data centers they have is that they will have a lot of network cables,
這些數據中心擁有的東西之一是它們會有大量的網路電纜,
1:04.767–1:09.059
a lot of what they call server racks that is responsible for the computation,
大量被稱為伺服器機櫃的設備,負責進行計算,
1:09.059–1:12.580
and then also the cooling, the energy requirements on there.
以及相關的冷卻系統和能源需求。
1:12.680–1:16.280
And usually the facilities are managed by very, very few people.
通常,這些設施由非常非常少的人管理。
1:16.280–1:19.276
So the reason why that has been going was because
所以之所以會這樣發展,是因為
1:19.276–1:22.672
the compute usage has gone up significantly,
運算使用量大幅上升
1:22.672–1:25.801
probably powered a lot by ChatGPT, Cloud,
可能主要由 ChatGPT、雲端
1:25.801–1:28.840
or every other AI application out there.
或各種其他人工智慧應用程式推動。
1:28.980–1:33.228
And that is why we need to, because we need data centers and
這就是為什麼我們需要,因為我們需要數據中心,
1:33.228–1:35.440
we need large sources of land,
並且需要大量的土地,
1:35.660–1:38.527
you're going to see large sources of construction,
你會看到大量的建設活動,
1:38.527–1:40.593
there is changes in the environment,
環境也會發生變化,
1:40.593–1:44.560
changes in maybe many normal people's daily expenses.
普通人的日常開銷也可能發生變化。
1:44.800–1:47.200
So that's why it's now become a big subject.
所以這就是為什麼它現在成為一個大議題。
1:47.200–1:48.000
Yeah, indeed.
是的,確實如此。
1:48.000–1:50.867
And yeah, because I was looking at, I think in the UK,
而且是的,因為我在看,我認為是在英國,
1:50.867–1:52.733
there were some protests against
有一些抗議活動
1:52.733–1:55.467
those data centers being built in your backyard,
反對在你家後院建設數據中心,
1:55.467–1:56.933
also in the United States.
在美國也是如此。
1:56.933–1:58.267
But Isaac, here in Asia,
但艾薩克,在亞洲,
1:58.267–2:02.600
Malaysia kind of stands out in terms of the number of data centers being built.
就建設數據中心的數量而言,馬來西亞顯得尤為突出。
2:02.700–2:05.960
How did Malaysia become such a hub in terms of this AI boom?
馬來西亞是如何成為這場人工智慧熱潮中的這樣一個樞紐的?
2:06.040–2:08.832
I think the big contributor is back in 2019 when
我認為最大的貢獻因素要追溯到 2019 年,當時
2:08.832–2:11.480
Singapore implemented this temporary ban.
新加坡實施了這項臨時禁令。
2:11.620–2:15.220
So developers had to look elsewhere to put their data centers.
因此,開發人員必須尋找其他地方來建設他們的數據中心。
2:15.460–2:18.460
And so they looked into neighboring Malaysia, Johor.
於是他們將目光轉向鄰國馬來西亞的柔佛。
2:18.460–2:23.180
Its proximity to Singapore makes it a perfect place to build data centers,
它靠近新加坡的地理位置,使其成為建立資料中心的理想地點,
2:23.180–2:24.614
which you can see now,
這你可以看到,
2:24.614–2:28.120
85% of Malaysia's data centres are located in Johor.
馬來西亞85%的資料中心都位於柔佛州。
2:28.420–2:31.640
Furthermore, the government put out incentives
此外,政府推出了各種誘因
2:31.640–2:35.460
that sort of draw in foreign investors to invest in the country.
這種情況會吸引外國投資者投資該國。
2:35.840–2:41.420
So Bernard, Isaac just talked about Singapore's restrictions on data centres back in 2019.
所以伯納德、艾薩克剛才談到了新加坡在2019年對資料中心實施的限制。
2:41.540–2:43.407
Can you just explain why that was?
你能解釋一下當時為什麼會這樣嗎?
2:43.407–2:46.540
It's actually not so much a ban, it's kind of a moratorium
這實際上與其說是禁令,不如說是一種暫停期
2:46.540–2:49.740
because I think the Singapore government is very prudent
因為我認為新加坡政府對於電力
2:49.740–2:52.540
about how they're thinking about the electricity
中斷問題的思考非常謹慎,
2:52.540–2:55.040
outages that have been going on.
這些中斷問題一直持續發生。
2:55.140–2:57.940
They're mostly caused because of a spike in demand
這主要是由於運算需求激增所導致
2:57.940–2:58.740
in computing.
的。
2:58.760–3:01.840
And I think post 2024,
我認為在2024年之後,
3:02.420–3:05.500
when there was also the US banning China
當時美國也禁止中國
3:05.500–3:07.060
for having the NVIDIA chips
使用輝達(NVIDIA)晶片,
3:07.060–3:09.060
and a lot of the Chinese founders
許多中國科技公司的
3:09.060–3:11.600
from the Chinese tech companies,
來自中國科技公司的,
3:11.700–3:13.280
they require another place
需要另一個地方
3:13.280–3:15.013
where they could actually have
讓他們能夠真正獲得
3:15.013–3:16.413
a source of good compute.
優質的運算資源。
3:16.540–3:19.140
So that also drives in a lot of foreign director
因此,這也帶動了大量外國直接投資
3:19.140–3:21.473
investments into Malaysia as a result. So
對馬來西亞的投資。因此
3:21.473–3:24.760
it's a combination of factors. We also talk about, say,
這是多種因素結合的結果。我們也談到,例如
3:24.900–3:30.012
things like legislation changes. Somewhere between 2019 to 2023,
立法方面的改變。在2019年到2023年之間,
3:30.012–3:32.020
a lot of the Southeast Asia
東南亞的許多
3:32.020–3:35.487
countries started to have what we call data sovereignty laws.
國家開始實施我們所謂的「數據主權法」。
3:35.487–3:37.153
So data sovereignty laws say,
數據主權法規定,
3:37.153–3:42.353
for example, Malaysia said we need to have something like the data must be hosted in Malaysia.
例如馬來西亞表示,我們需要類似「數據必須託管在馬來西亞」這樣的規定。
3:42.740–3:45.207
Indonesia certainly say the same. So it also
印尼也明確表示同樣的看法。因此,這也
3:45.207–3:47.407
prompts the hyperscalers to say, okay,
促使超大型雲端服務商表示,好吧,
3:47.407–3:52.340
we probably need in order to allow our businesses to operate in these countries,
為了讓我們在這些國家的業務能夠正常運作,
3:52.520–3:54.860
we have to set up the data centers.
我們必須設立資料中心。
3:55.040–3:59.460
And that build up, I think, started as of when that period started.
我認為這種累積效應是從那個時期開始的。
3:59.660–4:00.593
And I have to say,
我必須說,
4:00.593–4:03.660
they don't look that pretty to have in your back garden.
它們放在你的後花園裡看起來並不太美觀。
4:03.660–4:05.660
But Isaac, can you explain?
但艾薩克,你能解釋一下嗎?
4:06.300–4:09.700
I mean, it's not just geography of where Malaysia was, right?
我的意思是,這不僅僅是馬來西亞地理位置的問題,對吧?
4:09.700–4:12.967
That all the investments started pouring into the country
所有投資開始湧入該國
4:12.967–4:16.767
because it has been producing a lot of components, tech components.
是因為它生產了大量的元件,特別是科技元件。
4:16.860–4:19.870
So how have all these data centers being built?
那麼,這些數據中心的建設情況如何呢?
4:19.870–4:21.800
How has it helped the economy?
它對經濟有何幫助?
4:21.980–4:25.513
And can you just explain the background of Malaysia's economy?
你能否解釋一下馬來西亞經濟的背景?
4:25.513–4:29.647
Yeah, like billions of dollars are being poured into Malaysia's economy.
是的,數十億美元正湧入馬來西亞經濟。
4:29.647–4:32.513
And according to the International Monetary Fund,
根據國際貨幣基金組織的數據,
4:32.513–4:33.483
this year alone,
僅在今年,
4:33.483–4:37.360
it's expected for Malaysia's GDP to grow by at least 4.7%.
預計馬來西亞的國內生產總值(GDP)將增長至少 4.7%。
4:37.360–4:42.320
Now, the government obviously has a dream of being at the frontier of this AI revolution.
現在,政府顯然希望成為這場 AI 革命的領跑者。
4:42.320–4:46.320
So it's investing a lot. It's offering eligible companies incentives.
因此,政府投入了大量資金,並為符合資格的企業提供激勵措施。
4:46.320–4:50.580
For example, some of them could apply for income tax exemptions.
例如,其中一些企業可以申請所得稅豁免。
4:51.000–4:54.600
Others could even apply, could get like investment allowances.
其他企業甚至可以申請投資補貼。
4:54.780–4:59.660
So all these incentives are the government's steps to make that dream a reality.
因此,這些激勵措施是政府實現該願景的步驟。
5:00.380–5:03.505
But of course, there has been quite a lot of protests and
但當然,已經出現了相當多的抗議活動,
5:03.505–5:05.340
you actually spoke to somebody.
你實際上與某人進行了對話。
5:05.460–5:09.360
So can you just tell us what she told you, what her concerns are?
那麼,你能告訴我們她說了什麼,她的擔憂是什麼嗎?
5:09.780–5:11.513
Yeah, I spoke to Itha Malayana.
是的,我與 Itha Malayana 進行了對話。
5:11.513–5:13.647
She's a 26-year-old English teacher.
她是一位 26 歲的英語老師。
5:13.647–5:18.180
So in July, she saw the news that a data center was being proposed in her community.
在七月,她看到新聞報導稱,社區內擬建一座數據中心。
5:18.560–5:21.700
And she basically just said, no, not in my backyard.
她基本上只是說:「不,不要建在我家後院。」
5:22.120–5:26.308
And that concern is because she saw what's happening in the US,
這種擔憂是因為她看到了美國發生的情況,
5:26.308–5:28.080
the huge backlash against
對大型數據中心所引發的強烈反彈
5:28.080–5:31.480
data centers, and she didn't want that to be in her community.
數據中心產生的巨大反彈,她不希望這發生在她的社區。
5:31.480–5:34.213
So she goes online and she creates this petition.
於是她上網創建了這份請願書。
5:34.460–5:37.593
And what really stood out for me is that in that petition,
讓我印象特別深刻的是,在那份請願書中,
5:37.593–5:39.393
she started with a really famous
她引用了一句非常著名的
5:39.393–5:41.907
quote about how when the last tree falls,
話,大意是當最後一棵樹倒下時,
5:41.907–5:45.080
people will realize that they can't eat money.
人們會意識到他們不能吃錢。
5:45.080–5:46.547
And I asked her about that.
我就此問了她。
5:46.547–5:51.600
She said that quote basically encapsulates everything that she's standing against the
她說的那句話基本上概括了她所反對的一切
5:51.600–5:53.020
data centers.
數據中心的一切。
5:53.020–5:54.687
And this is what she has to say.
這就是她想說的。
5:54.687–6:01.060
One of the justifications of data centers is that local industry workers would get trained
數據中心建設的理由之一是,當地工業從業人員將接受培訓,
6:01.060–6:04.480
and hopefully get to develop this industry in Malaysia.
並有望在馬來西亞發展該行業。
6:04.480–6:07.238
But I think I've read very briefly on this, but
但我認為我對此只是簡略閱讀過,但
6:07.238–6:09.560
it seems like that's not going to be the
看來情況完全不是這樣。
6:09.560–6:10.227
case at all.
他們似乎只是設置這些服務器,
6:10.320–6:13.120
Like they're just going to set up these servers and
就像他們只是要設置這些伺服器並
6:13.120–6:15.053
then have a few people managing it.
但這並不真正涉及技能轉移。
6:15.053–6:18.320
But it's not really going to be like a skill transfer thing.
我可以為在醫學或類似領域使用 AI 進行辯護,
6:18.320–6:21.053
I could justify using AI in like medicine or like,
我可以為在醫學領域使用 AI 辯護,或者說,
6:21.053–6:22.920
I don't know, astrophysics.
我不知道,像是天文物理學。
6:22.920–6:29.040
But why do we need it to decide what we want for lunch or solve a relationship problem?
但為什麼我們需要它來決定午餐想吃什麼,或是解決人際關係問題呢?
6:29.400–6:32.133
Bernard, what do you think about what Aoife said?
伯納德,你對艾奧菲說的話有什麼看法?
6:32.133–6:35.537
I think there are a few parts of what it comes to when
我認為這涉及幾個方面,包括
6:35.537–6:37.660
a data center comes online.
數據中心上線時,
6:38.240–6:40.707
So before the data center is actually built,
在數據中心實際建成之前,
6:40.707–6:43.840
that actually brings in what we call construction jobs.
這實際上會帶來我們所說的建築業就業機會。
6:43.840–6:46.773
Now, once the data center is complete and completed,
現在,一旦數據中心完工並完成,
6:47.080–6:50.222
then the management of the data center is taken over by,
接著資料中心的營運管理就會由
6:50.222–6:51.520
say, the hyperscaler.
例如超規模雲端服務商接管。
6:51.800–6:54.467
They typically, it's actually very few people,
他們通常,實際上只需要非常少的人,
6:54.467–6:56.000
as she rightfully pointed.
正如她正確指出的那樣。
6:56.000–6:57.800
So what happens here is that then
所以這裡發生的情況是,然後
6:57.800–7:00.734
you have a few workers that is actually able to,
你會有一些工人實際上能夠,
7:00.734–7:05.464
if there's any anomalous things happening within the data center,
如果數據中心內發生任何異常情況,
7:05.464–7:09.180
they will be the person to resolve the issues on that.
他們將是負責解決該問題的人。
7:09.480–7:12.147
But then when you look out to the bigger economy,
但當你看更大的經濟體時,
7:12.147–7:16.013
right, then you think about what the data center is actually driving.
對吧,然後你會思考數據中心實際上在推動什麼。
7:16.013–7:16.947
The data center,
數據中心,
7:16.947–7:21.013
the real focus is actually to drive more what we call the digital economy.
真正的重點實際上是要推動更多我們所說的數位經濟。
7:21.013–7:23.813
So the digital economy could be in the form of, say,
所以數位經濟可能以例如
7:23.920–7:26.040
maybe knowledge-based work.
可能是知識型工作的形式存在。
7:26.160–7:29.900
It could be new kinds of jobs that may be created out of this AI.
它可能是由這項人工智慧創造出的新型工作。
7:30.000–7:32.800
I know we are now in what we call a transition stage.
我知道我們現在處於我們所說的過渡階段。
7:32.900–7:39.300
And so the big fear is the job displacement is larger than the job creation.
因此,最大的擔憂是就業流失大於就業創造。
7:40.000–7:40.520
Yeah.
是的。
7:40.780–7:44.460
The only answer to what she's saying is the creation of new jobs.
對她所說內容的唯一回應是新工作的創造。
7:44.620–7:46.687
Is there going to be more than or less?
會是更多還是更少呢?
7:47.120–7:48.720
That question, I don't know.
這個問題,我不知道。
7:48.720–7:52.800
I would prefer to be much more humble to say I don't know.
我更願意謙虛地說我不知道。
7:53.020–7:58.640
But I think we've seen different iterations of technological change.
但我認為我們已經看到了不同階段技術變革的迭代。
8:00.000–8:02.260
And so far, every time it happened,
到目前為止,每次發生時,
8:02.420–8:04.420
we seem to end up creating more jobs.
我們似乎最終都創造了更多工作。
8:04.800–8:07.920
If you're just looking at this current time period,
如果你只看當前的這段時間,
8:08.020–8:09.687
when's the data center built?
數據中心何時建成?
8:09.687–8:11.553
She's effectively right on that.
她在這一點上確實是正確的。
8:11.553–8:13.620
But how the data center creates value
但數據中心如何創造價值
8:13.620–8:16.153
for the digital economy within that country,
對於該國內部的數位經濟,
8:16.153–8:17.700
that is not so clear to me.
這對我來說並不明確。
8:17.800–8:19.933
But would that be within that country?
但這會發生在該國內部嗎?
8:19.933–8:23.067
Because couldn't you argue that those new jobs created,
因為你難道不能辯稱,這些因 AI 熱潮而創造的新工作機會,
8:23.067–8:26.180
thanks to the AI boom, might be outside of Malaysia?
可能位於馬來西亞境外嗎?
8:26.280–8:29.200
So that was the whole reason why every country
所以這就是為什麼每個國家
8:29.200–8:31.400
now has their own Data Sovereignty Act.
現在都制定自己的數據主權法的原因。
8:31.400–8:34.600
Yes, you can host other data from other parts of the world,
是的,你可以託管來自世界其他地區的數據,
8:34.600–8:37.700
but you still have a sustainable holding.
但你仍需保持可持續的持有狀態。
8:38.120–8:40.320
And every business out there who needs,
而所有需要數據託管的企業,
8:40.380–8:42.647
whether it's a neocloud or hyperscaler,
無論是新雲(neocloud)還是超大型雲端供應商(hyperscaler),
8:42.647–8:46.580
they have to invest in Malaysia in order to get that part of the economy.
都必須在馬來西亞投資,以獲取該經濟領域的份額。
8:46.720–8:48.920
And they have to drive the local economy
他們必須推動當地經濟,
8:48.920–8:52.300
because what they don't really want is having everyone,
因為他們真正不想看到的是,
8:52.560–8:55.427
the local communities holding pitchforks and say,
當地社區手持草叉高呼,
8:55.427–8:58.227
hey, you know, we want to burn down the data center.
「嘿,你知道嗎,我們想燒毀數據中心。」
8:58.227–9:00.427
That is also a cause of concern for them.
這也是他們擔憂的原因之一。
9:00.600–9:04.267
And I think that stability also becomes part of the conversation.
我認為穩定性也成為討論的一部分。
9:04.267–9:08.540
How has the Malaysian government been speaking about this ambition,
馬來西亞政府對於這項抱負的說法為何
9:08.540–9:11.397
their ambition to be the AI hub, but also
即成為 AI 中心的抱負,但也包括
9:11.397–9:14.860
concerns from those local residents over jobs,
當地居民對就業的擔憂,
9:14.860–9:16.798
but also about the environment.
以及對環境的擔憂。
9:16.798–9:20.460
I previously mentioned that Johor currently houses about 80
我之前提到,柔佛州目前擁有馬來西亞約 80
9:20.460–9:22.782
to 85% of the data centers in Malaysia. So
至 85% 的數據中心。因此,
9:22.782–9:26.060
in the state of Johor, the government has banned two tiers
在柔佛州,政府禁止建設兩類
9:26.060–9:29.055
of data centers. First is a tier one and tier two.
數據中心。第一類是一級和二級數據中心。
9:29.055–9:31.900
Those are data centers which consume about 50
這些數據中心每天消耗約 50
9:31.900–9:34.672
million litres of water a day. And
百萬公升的水。而
9:34.672–9:39.820
that amount is basically about, it could satisfy the people's
這個水量基本上可以滿足超過 2500 萬人的
9:39.820–9:43.500
daily drinking needs above 25 million people. So
每日飲水需求超過2500萬人。所以
9:43.500–9:47.000
the government has stopped those data centres
政府已停止建設這些數據中心。同時,
9:47.000–9:48.671
from being built. It has also
政府也引入了罰則,如果數據中心運營商聲稱
9:48.671–9:52.500
introduced penalties where if the data centre operator said that
引入了處罰措施,如果數據中心運營商聲稱
9:52.500–9:56.692
this is the amount of electricity it's going to use per year,
如果他們實際上不需要使用其中的 85%,
9:56.692–9:58.620
if it doesn't need 85% of it,
政府將會追查運營商。
9:58.620–10:00.620
they're going to find the operator.
實際上有一個指標用於評估數據中心。
10:00.800–10:03.600
There's actually a metric to look at data centers.
它被稱為電力使用效率,
10:03.600–10:05.867
It's called power usage effectiveness,
也就是所謂的 PUE 指標。
10:05.867–10:07.533
what they call the PUE metric.
所以,如果你考慮一下,
10:07.533–10:09.720
So if you think about, say,
目前新加坡強制規定
10:10.020–10:12.240
currently Singapore is mandating
所有數據中心的 PUE 必須低於
10:12.240–10:15.160
that all data centers must be below
所謂的 1.25 PUE。
10:15.160–10:17.400
what is called 1.25 PUE.
所謂的1.25 PUE。
10:17.920–10:18.420
Okay.
好的。
10:18.580–10:20.220
Malaysia, I think it's 1.4.
我認為馬來西亞是1.4。
10:20.560–10:22.760
So there are two aspects of the problem.
所以這個問題有兩個面向。
10:22.760–10:24.693
So one of them is the water problem.
其中一個是水資源問題。
10:24.693–10:26.120
The water problem is real
如果他們不嘗試為資料中心冷卻系統回收用水,
10:26.120–10:31.360
if they do not try to recycle the water for the data center's cooling.
如果他們不嘗試為數據中心的冷卻系統回收用水。
10:31.820–10:36.200
So there are actually already known solutions to that.
因此,其實已有已知的解決方案。
10:36.400–10:39.600
So there is something called StatePoint Liquid Cooling.
有一種稱為StatePoint的液體冷卻技術。
10:39.600–10:42.333
A couple of companies actually started in the US.
實際上,有幾家公司在美國開始發展這項技術。
10:42.333–10:43.467
But how do they do it?
但他們是如何做到的呢?
10:43.467–10:45.467
So basically, you reflux the water.
基本上,就是將水進行回流。
10:45.467–10:48.200
There is an entire recycling technology on that.
這方面已有完整的回收技術。
10:48.420–10:51.780
The more concerning part of this is actually energy.
更令人擔憂的部分其實是能源。
10:52.900–10:55.833
Because of the usage of AI is exponentially growing,
由於AI的使用量呈指數級增長,
10:55.833–10:58.500
the energy usage is also growing exponentially
能源消耗也呈指數級增長,
10:58.500–11:00.860
and we are actually filling it.
我們實際上正在填補這個缺口。
11:01.200–11:05.640
So a lot of it is due to poor demand forecasting of power.
這其中很大一部分是因為電力需求預測不佳。
11:05.840–11:08.507
If you think about, look at the region as a whole,
如果你從整體區域的角度來看,
11:08.507–11:11.440
countries, I mean, Singapore is already doing that.
我指的是國家,新加坡已經在這樣做了。
11:11.440–11:13.173
The next data centre you build,
你接下來建造的資料中心,
11:13.173–11:15.040
you have to have a certain energy,
必須具備一定的能源條件,
11:15.040–11:16.707
that means the energy you use,
這意味著你所使用的能源中,
11:16.707–11:19.107
some parts of it must come from renewables.
其中一部分必須來自可再生能源。
11:19.107–11:21.507
Then as you go to say Malaysia, for example,
然後,當你考慮到例如馬來西亞時,
11:21.507–11:23.373
then the question is what kind of,
問題就變成了什麼樣的能源組合,
11:23.373–11:25.040
they definitely have energy,
他們肯定擁有能源,
11:25.040–11:26.507
they have petroleum, oil,
他們擁有石油、原油,
11:26.507–11:29.773
so they can hydrocarbon so you can power some part of it then
因此他們可以使用碳氫化合物來為部分設施供電,
11:29.773–11:31.440
the question is do they want to
問題是他們是否願意
11:31.440–11:32.973
rely on other mixes because
依賴其他能源組合,因為
11:32.973–11:36.820
the there is no way now that uh just by using a carbon they are able
目前沒有任何方法可以僅憑使用碳基能源就
11:36.820–11:38.565
to run that they also you also
能夠運行,而且這也會
11:38.565–11:42.420
bring about the increase of climate change as well and malaysia
也帶來氣候變遷的加劇,而馬來西亞
11:42.420–11:45.582
has the ambition to be that ai hub in southeast asia and
則有成為東南亞AI樞紐的抱負,
11:45.582–11:47.620
it really wants to achieve that so i
並且確實希望達成此目標,所以我
11:47.620–11:52.753
think the government needs to balance between addressing the people's concerns while also
我認為政府需要在回應民眾擔憂與採取務實步驟實現成為人工智慧樞紐的夢想之間取得平衡
11:52.753–11:57.090
taking realistic steps to make those dreams a reality of being an AI hub.
採取務實的步驟,將成為AI樞紐的夢想化為現實。
11:57.090–11:58.180
So the Malaysian
因此,馬來西亞
11:58.180–12:04.660
government, the Prime Minister announced that the young people will be able to access a three-month
政府,首相宣布年輕人將能獲得三個月的
12:04.660–12:07.580
free subscription to some of the AI models and
部分AI模型的訂閱服務,並
12:07.580–12:10.500
that is basically to allow them to explore the
這基本上是為了讓他們能夠探索
12:10.500–12:15.306
AI models, play with it and even to perhaps boost their creativity and
AI模型,進行體驗,甚至可能激發他們的創造力並
12:15.306–12:17.460
improve their digital skills.
提升他們的數位技能。
12:17.460–12:22.520
So the government is taking an active step into making the country embrace AI.
因此,政府正採取積極措施,讓國家擁抱AI。
12:22.740–12:26.980
But I guess we'll see how the government addresses the people's concerns.
但我猜我們會看到政府如何處理民眾的擔憂。
12:27.760–12:30.795
Will they keep building data centers for now with,
他們目前是否會繼續建設數據中心,
12:30.795–12:33.180
I guess, stricter regulations, Isaac?
我認為,艾薩克,這需要更嚴格的監管?
12:33.440–12:35.107
I think so, honestly, because
老實說,我認為會如此,因為
12:35.107–12:38.040
the people's concerns about data centers are valid.
民眾對數據中心的擔憂是合理的。
12:38.040–12:38.973
And for example,
舉例來說
12:38.973–12:44.240
you heard from Ether herself that she said that she doesn't want Malaysia to become like the US,
你聽過艾瑟本人說過,她表示不希望馬來西亞變成像美國那樣,
12:44.240–12:47.440
where the people actively push back against data centers
人們積極抵制數據中心的地方
12:47.440–12:50.561
because she's questioning why is data centers, AI,
因為她質疑數據中心、AI
12:50.561–12:52.460
relevant or even important?
為何相關甚至重要?
12:52.460–12:56.420
Because we've heard from the AI company CEOs themselves
因為我們聽過AI公司執行長本人說
12:56.420–12:59.353
that they say that this AI revolution is inevitable.
他們表示這場AI革命是不可避免的。
12:59.620–13:01.220
But she's questioning that.
但她對此提出質疑。
13:01.320–13:02.943
So I think we'll hear more and
所以我想我們會聽到越來越多
13:02.943–13:05.580
more people having similar concerns as Ether.
像艾瑟一樣有類似擔憂的人。
13:06.000–13:09.700
One interesting example of a country that's in this AI revolution
一個有趣的例子是,在這次AI革命中
13:09.700–13:12.560
that's not very much we would think about is China.
一個我們不太會想到的國家是中國。
13:12.560–13:15.820
so where China is pretty effective
中國相當有效的地方
13:15.820–13:17.520
is the energy infrastructure
在於能源基礎設施
13:17.520–13:18.653
so they have built up
他們已經建立
13:18.653–13:20.587
most of the energy infrastructure
大部分的能源基礎設施
13:20.587–13:21.587
they have built up
他們已經建立
13:21.587–13:22.187
most of the
大部分的
13:22.187–13:23.460
renewable energy mix
可再生能源組合
13:23.460–13:24.620
what they don't have
他們現在缺乏的是
13:24.620–13:25.487
is now the chips
現在是晶片
13:25.487–13:27.160
and the AI models are lagging
而AI模型落後
13:27.160–13:28.820
basically 3 to 6 months
基本上落後3到6個月
13:28.820–13:30.353
depending on who you talk to
這取決於你問的是誰
13:30.353–13:31.120
on that
關於這一點
13:31.120–13:32.820
but if you look at say
但如果你看看說
13:32.820–13:34.400
there was a survey done
有一項調查顯示
13:34.400–13:36.420
80% of Chinese
80%的中國人
13:36.420–13:38.320
are hopeful about the AI future
對AI未來充滿希望
13:38.320–13:40.600
and then if you do the same survey
然後如果你進行同樣的調查
13:40.600–13:42.080
in the US it's only 31%
在美國只有31%
13:42.080–13:45.080
So the question is, what's the big difference, right?
所以問題是,到底有什麼巨大的差異,對吧?
13:45.080–13:48.300
So I think a lot of it is in whether we're optimistic
我認為這很大程度上取決於我們是否樂觀
13:48.300–13:52.820
that the AI will bring about sort of a growth of a new economy.
認為 AI 將帶來一種新經濟體系的增長。
13:53.660–13:59.520
And there are some things that I think people take it to the logical extreme.
我認為有些人會將這一點推演到邏輯極端。
13:59.840–14:03.860
If AI was to do everything of this, then what should humans do, right?
如果 AI 能完成所有這些工作,那麼人類該做什麼呢,對吧?
14:04.180–14:07.920
I think the way I would probably want to moving ahead,
我認為我未來可能希望採取的方式是,
14:07.920–14:12.260
I think that there is actually human creativity is actually infinite.
我認為人類的創造力其實是無限的。
14:12.580–14:15.647
The demand for human creativity is actually infinite.
人類創造力的需求其實是無限的。
14:15.647–14:17.939
And I think for that, because of that,
我認為正因如此
14:17.939–14:20.760
even if AI can automate most of the things,
即使 AI 能自動化大多數事情,
14:21.100–14:23.033
there are still things for us to do.
仍然有我們要做的事情。
14:23.033–14:25.300
Yeah, really insightful conversation.
是的,非常有洞察力的對話。
14:25.300–14:27.000
Thank you so much for joining me, Bernad and Isaac.
非常感謝 Bernad 和 Isaac 來與我交流。