{ "text": "This is democracyow [music]democracynow.orgthe War and Peace Report. I'm AmyGoodman. The Empire of AI, that's the\nname of a new book by journalist KarenHow, who's been closely reporting on therise of the artificial intelligence\nindustry with a focus on Sam Alman'sOpen AI. That's the company behind ChatGPT. Karen how compares the actions of\nthe AI industry to those of colonialpowers of the past. She writes, quote,\"The empires of AI are not engaged in\nthe same overt violence and brutalitythat marked this history, but they tooseize and extract precious resources to\nfeed their vision of artificialintelligence. the work of artists andwriters, the data of countlessindividuals posting about their\nexperiences and observations online, theland, energy, and water required tohouse and run massive data centers and\nsupercomputers. She writes, \"Over thepast year, the Trump administration hasincreasingly embraced the AI industry.\nIn December, Trump signed an executiveorder to bar states and localgovernments from enacting their own AI\nregulations. Soon after he signed theorder, his family's company, Trump Mediand Technology, announced a $6 billion\nmerger with a firm aiming to build theworld's first viable nuclear fusionplant to power AI projects. Karen How is\na former reporter at the Wall StreetJournal and MIT Technology Review whereshe became the first journalist to\nprofile open AI. Democracy Now's JuanGonzalez and I spoke to her in May. TheNational Book Critic Circle recently\nnamed her book The Empire of AI: Dreamsand Nightmares and Sam Alman's Open AIas a finalist for best non-fiction book\nof 2025.I began by asking Karen How to explainjust what artificial intelligence is. SoAI is a collection of many different\nechnologies but most people wereintroduced to it through chatbt and whatI argue in the book and what the title\nrefers to empire of AI it's actually acritique of the specific trajectory ofAI development that led us to chatbt and\nhas continued since chatbt and that ispecifically Silicon Valley's scale atall costs approach to AI development AI\nmodels in modern day they are trained ondata they need computers to train themon that data. But what Silicon Valley\ndid and what OpenAI did in the last fewyears is they started blowing up theamount of data and the the size of the\ncomputers that need to do this training.So we are talking about the full Englishlanguage internet being fed into these\nmodels, books, scientific articles, allof the intellectual property that isbeing created and also massive\nsupercomputers that run tens ofthousands even hundreds of thousands ofcomputer chips that are the size of\ndozens maybe hundreds of football fieldsand use practically the entire energydemands of cities now. So this is an\nextraordinary um type of AI developmenthat is causing a lot of social, laborand environmental harms and that is\nultimately why I evoke this analogy toempire.>> And Karen, could you talk some moreabout not only the energy requirements\nbut the water requirements of these hugedata centers that are essence in essencethe backbone of of this uh widening uh\nindustry?\n>> Absolutely. I'll give you two stats onboth the energy and the water. Whentalking about the energy demand,\nMcKenzie recently came out with a reporthat said in the next 5 years based onthe current pace of AI computational\ninfrastructure expansion, we would needto put as much energy on the global gridas what is consumed by two to six times\nthe energy consumed annually by thestate of California. And that willmostly be serviced by fossil fuels.We're already seeing reporting of uh\ncoal plants with their lives beingextended. They were supposed to retirebut now they cannot to support this data\ncenter development. We are seeingmethane gas turbines, unlicensed onesbeing popped up to uh service these data\ncenters as well. From a freshwaterperspective, these data centers need tobe trained on freshwater. They cannot be\ntrained on any other type of waterbecause it can corrode the equipment. Itcan lead to bacterial growth and most of\nthe time it actually taps directly intoa public drinking water supply becausethat is the infrastructure that has been\nlaid to deliver this clean fresh waterto different businesses to differenthomes. And Bloomberg recently had an\nalysis where they looked at thexpansion of these data centers aroundthe world and 2thirds of them are being\nplaced in water scarce areas. So they'rebeing placed in communities that do nothave access to fresh water. So it's not\njust the total amount of fresh waterthat we need to be concerned about, butactually the distribution of this\ninfrastructure around the world.And most people are familiar with chatGPT the consumer aspect of AI but what\nabout the military uh aspect of AI wherein essence uh we're finding SiliconValley companies becoming the next\ngeneration of defense contractors.>> One of the reasons why OpenAI and manyother companies are turning to the\ndefense industry is because they havespent an extraordinary amount of moneyin developing these technologies.\nThey're spending hundreds of billions totrain these models and they need torecoup those costs and there are only so\nmany industries and so many places thathave that size of a paycheck to pay. Andso that's why we're seeing a cozying up\nto the defense industry. We're alsoseeing Silicon Valley use the USgovernment in their empire buildingambitions. You could argue that the US\ngovernment is also trying to use SiliconValley vice versa in their empirebuilding ambitions. Um but certainly\nthese technologies are not they are notdesigned to be used in a sensitivemilitary context. And so the theaggressive push of these companies to\ntry and get those defense contracts andintegrate their technologies more andmore to the into the infrastructure of\nthe military is really alarming. Iwanted to go to the countries you wento or the stories you covered because I\nmean this is amazing the depth of youreporting from Kenya to Uruguay toChile. Um you were talking about the use\nof water and I also want to ask youabout nuclear power. Uh but in Chile umwhat is happening there around these\ndata centers and the water they woulduse and the resistance to that.>> Yeah. So Chile has an interestinghistory in that it's been under it was\nunder a dictatorship for a very longtime. And so during that time, mostpublic resources were privatized,including water. But because of an\nomaly, there's one community in thegreater Santiago metropolitan regionthat actually still has access to a\npublic freshwater resource that servicesboth that community as well as the restof the country in emergency situations.\nThat is the exact community that Googlechose to try to put a data center in>> and it would be free>> and it, you know, I have no idea. That\nis a great question. But what thecommunity told me was they weren't evenpaying taxes for this because they they\nbelieved based on reading thedocumentation that the taxes that Googlewas paying was in fact to where they had\nregistered their offices, theiradministrative offices, not where theywere putting down the data center. So\nthey were not seeing any benefit fromthis data center directly to thatcommunity and they were seeing no checks\nplaced on the fresh water that this datacenter would have been allowed toextract. And so these activists said,\n\"Wait a minute, absolutely not. We'renot going to allow this data center tocome in unless they give us a legitimate\nreason for why it benefits us.\" And sothey started doing boots on the groundactivism, pushing back, knocking on\nevery single one of their neighborsdoors, handing out flyers to thecommunity, telling them this company is\ntaking our freshwater resources withoutgiving us anything in return. And sothey escalated so dramatically that it\nescalated to Google Chile. It escalatedto Google Mountain View, which by theway then sent representatives to Chile\nthat only spoke English.But then it eventually escalated to theChilean government. And the Chileangovernment now has roundts where they\nask these community residents and thecompany representatives andrepresentatives from the government to\ncome together to actually discuss how tomake data center development morebeneficial to the community. The\nactivists say it is the fight is notover. Just because they've been invitedto the table doesn't mean thateverything is suddenly better. They need\nto stay vigilant. They need to continuescrutinizing these projects. But thusfar they've been able to block this\nproject for four to five years and havegained that seat at the table.>> And how is it that these uh westerncompanies in essence are exploiting\nlabor in the global south? You go into\nsomething called data annotation firms.What what are those?\n>> Yeah. So because AI modern day AIsystems are trained on massive amountsof data and they're sc that's scraped\nfrom the internet, you can't actuallypump that data directly into your AImodel because there are a lot of things\nwithin within that data. It's heavilypolluted. It needs to be cleaned. Itneeds to be annotated. So this is where\ndata annotation firms come in. These aremiddleman firms that hire contract laborto provide to these AI companies to do\nthat kind of data preparation. And openAI when it was starting to think aboutcommercializing its products and\nthinking about let's put text generationmachines that can spew any kind of textinto the hands of millions of users.\nThey realized they needed to have somekind of content moderation. They neededto develop a filter that would wrap\naround these models and prevent thesemodels from actually spewing racist,hateful, and harmful speech to users\nthat would not make a very goodcommercially viable product. And so theycontracted these middleman firms in\nKenya where the Kenyan workers had toread through reams of the worst text onthe internet as well as AI generated\ntext where open AI was prompting its ownAI models to imagine the worst text onthe internet and then telling these\nKenyan workers to detail to categorizethem in detailed taxonomies of is thisexual content, is this violent content,\nhow graphic is that violent content inorder to teach its filter all thedifferent categories of content it had\nto block. And this is incrediblyuncommon form of labor. There are lotsof other different types of contract\nlabor that they use. But these workers,they're paid a few bucks an hour, if atall. And just like the era of social\nmedia, these content moderators are leftvery deeply psychologically traumatized.And ultimately, there is no real\nphilosophy behind why these workers arepaid a couple bucks an hour and havetheir lives destroyed. And why AI\nresearchers who also contribute to thesemodels are paid million-dollcompensation packages simply because\nthey sit in Silicon Valley in OpenAI'soffices. That is the logic of Empire.And that hearkens back to my title,\nEmpire of AI.>> So, let's go back to your title, Empireof AI. the subtitle dreams andnightmares in Sam Alman's Open AI. So\ntell us the story of Sam Alman and whatOpen AI is all about right through tothe deal he just made in the Gulf when\nPresident Trump uh Sam Alman and ElonMusk were there. Alman is very much aproduct of Silicon Valley. His career\nwas first as a founder of a startup andthen as the president of Y Combinator,which is one of the most famous startup\naccelerators in Silicon Valley, and thenthe CEO of OpenAI. And there's nocoincidence that OpenAI ended up\nintroducing the world to the scale atall cost approach to AI developmentbecause that is the way that Silicon\nValley has operated in the entire timethat Altman came up in it. And so he isa very strategic person. He isincredibly good at telling stories about\nhe future and painting these sweepingvisions that investors and employeeswant to be a part of. And so early on at\nYC, he identified that AI would be oneof the trends that could take off. Andhe was trying to build a portfolio of\ndifferent investments and differentinitiatives to place himself in thecenter of various different trends\ndepending on which one took off. He wasinvesting in quantum computing. He wasinvesting in nuclear fusion. He was\ninvesting in self-driving cars. And hewas developing a fundamental AI researchlab. Ultimately, the AI research lab was\nthe ones that started acceleratingreally quickly. So he makes himself theCEO of that company. Um and andoriginally he started it as a nonprofit\no try and position it as a counter toforprofit driven incentives in SiliconValley. But within one and a half years,\nOpenAI's executives identified that ifthey wanted to be the lead in thispace, they had to go for this scale at\nall cost approach and had to should bein quotes. They thought that they had todo this. There are actually many other\nways to develop AI and to have progressin AI that does not take this approach.But once they decided that, they\nrealized the bottleneck was capital. Itjust so happens Sam Alman is a once in ageneration fundraising talent. He\ncreated this new structure nesting afor-profit arm within the nonprofit tobecome this fundraising vehicle for the\ntens of billions and ultimately hundredsof billions that they needed to pursuethe approach that they decided on. And\nthat is how we ultimately get to presentday OpenAI, which is one of the mostcapitalistic companies in the history of\nSilicon Valley, continuing to raisehundreds of billions and and Altman hasjoked even trillions to produce a\ntechnology that ultimately has amiddling economic impact thus far. We'llreturn to our conversation in a minute\nwith Karen How, author of the new bookEmpire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares inSam Alman's Open AI. Stay with us.\nThis is Democracy Now! democracynow.org.\nI'm Amy Goodman. In this holidayspecial, we continue with the journalistKaren How, author of the new book Empire\nof AI: Dreams and Nightmares, and SamAlman's Open AI. Karen came into ourstudio in May when she discussed how AI\nwill impact workers.One of the things that we have seen isthis technology is already having a hugeimpact on jobs.\nNot necessarily because the technologyitself is really capable of replacingjobs, but it is perceived as capable\nnough that executives are laying offworkers. And we need more some kind ofmore guard rails to actually prevent\nhese companies from continuing to tryand develop labor automatingtechnologies and try to shift them toproducing labor assistive technologies.\nWhat do you mean?\n>> So, open AI, their definition of whathey call artificial generalintelligence is highly autonomousystems that outperform humans in most\neconomically valuable work. So, theyexplicitly state that they are trying toautomate jobs away. I mean, what are\nwhat is economically valuable work? But\nhe things that people do to get paid.Um but there's this really great bookcalled Power in Progress by MITeconomists Jeron Austin and Simon\nJohnson who mention that technologydevelopment all technology revolutionsthey take a labor automating approach\nnot because of inevitability but becausethe people at the top choose to automatethose jobs away. They choose to design\nthe technology so that they can sell ito executives and say you can shrinkyour costs by laying off all theseworkers and using our AI services\ninstead. But in the past, we've seenstudies that for example suggest that ifyou develop an AI tool that a doctor\nuses rather than replacing the doctor,you will actually get better health carefor patients. you will get better di\ncancer diagnoses. If you develop an AItool that teachers can use rather thanjust an AI tutor that replaces the\nteacher, your kids will get bettereducational outcomes. And so that's whatI mean by labor assistive than labor\n>> and explain uh what you mean because Ithink a lot of people don't evenunderstand artificial intelligence. And\nwhen you say replace the doctor, whatare you talking about?\n>> Right. So these companies they try todevelop a technology that they positionas an everything machine that can do\nanything. Um and so they will try to sayou can use this you can talk to chatbtfor therapy. No, you cannot. Chat GBT is\nnot a licensed therapist. And in fact,these models actually spew lots ofmedical misinformation. And there have\nbeen lots of um examples of actuallyusers being psychologically harmed bythe model because the model will\ncontinue to reinforce um selfharmingbehaviors. And we've even had caseswhere uh children who speak to chatbots\nand develop huge emotional relationshipswith these chatbots have actually killedthemselves after using these chatbot\nsystems. Um but that's what I mean whenthese companies are trying to developlabor automating tools. They're\npositioning it as you can now hire thistool instead of hire a worker. I mean,most recently, Sam Alman was speaking at\na conference and said, \"We originallysaid that these models were junior levelpartners at a law firm, and now we think\nthat they can really be more seniorcolleagues at a law firm.\" What he'saying is don't hire the junior levelpartners, don't hire the senior\ncolleagues, and just use our AI models.And we are already seeing the careerladder breaking because many different\nwhite collar job uh white collar serviceindustries as well as other industriesare becoming convinced that they do not\nneed to hire interns. They do not needto hire entry-level positions that theyjust need these AI models and new\ncollege graduates are struggling now tofind job opportunities to help them geta foothold into these industries. So,\nyou've talked about Sam Alman, and inpart one, we touched on uh who he is,but I'd like you to go more deeply into\nwhat uh who Sam Alman is, how hexploded onto the um US scene,testifying before Congress, actuallywarning about the dangers of AI. So,\nthat really protected him in a way.>> Um people seeing him as a prophet.That's a P O P. But now, we can talkabout the other kind of prophet, P O Fit\nT.um and how open AI was formed. How isopen AI different from AI?\nOpenAI is a com I mean it was originallyfounded as a nonprofit as I mentionedand Alman specifically when he was\nthinking about how do I make afundamental AI research lab that isgoing to make a big splash he chose tomake it a nonprofit because he\nidentified that if he could not competeon capital and he was relatively late tothe game Google already had a monopoly\non a lot of top AI research talent athe time if he could not compete oncapital and he could not compete um interms of being a first mover he\nneeded some other kind of ingredienthere to really recruit talent recruitum public goodwill and establish a name\nfor open AAI so he identified a missionhe identified let me make this anonprofit and let me give it a reallycompelling mission so the mission of\nopenai is to ensure artificial generalintelligence benefits all of humanityAnd one of the quotes that I open my\nbook with is this quote that Sam Almancited himself in 2013 um in his blog. Hewas an avid blogger back in the day\ntalking about his learnings on businessand strategy and Silicon Valley startuplife. And the quote is successful people\nbuilt companies, more successful peoplebuild countries. The most successfulpeople build religions. And then he\nreflects on that quote in his blogsaying, \"It appears to me that the bestway to build a religion is actually to\nbuild a company.\">> And so talk about how Alman was thenforced out of the company and then cameback. And also I just found it so\nfascinating that you were able to speakwith so many Open AI workers. Youthought there was a kind of total ban on\nyou.>> Yes. Yeah. Exactly. So I was the firstjournalist to profile OpenAI. Um, Iembedded within the company for 3 days\nin 2019 and then my profile published in2020 for MIT technology review and athe time I identified in the profile\nthis tension that I was seeing where itwas a nonprofit by name but behind thescenes a lot of the public values that\nhey exposed were actually the oppositeof how they operated. So they espousedtransparency but they were highly\nsecretive. They espousedcollaboriveness. They were highlycompetitive. and they espoused that theyhad no commercial intent, but in fact it\nseemed like they had just gotten a $1billion investment from Microsoft. Itseems like they were rapidly going to\ndevelop commercial intent. And so Iwrote that into the profile and OpenAIwas deeply unhappy about it and they\nwould not refuse to talk to me for 3years. But when I started working on thebook, when I started reaching out to\nemployees, current and former, Idiscovered that many employees actuallyreally liked the profile and they\nspecifically wanted to talk to mebecause they thought that I would dojustice to the truth of what hadactually happened within the company and\nbe able to discover behind what thexecutives mythologized and narrativizedabout this technology [clears throat]\nand about the course of this company. Iwould be able to actually get beneathat to the real heart of the matter.\nAnd so um one of the things that youreally have to understand about AIdevelopment today is that there are what\nI call quasi religious movements thathave developed within Silicon Valley.The concept of artificial general\nintelligence is not one that'scientifically grounded. It is this ideathat we can fundamentally recreate human\nintelligence in computers. And this ideahas been around for actually a reallylong time. The field of AI was founded\nall the way back in the 1950s and thatwas the original intent of the field.How do we recreate intelligence in\ncomputers? Can machines think? That was\nthe famous question that Britishmathematician Alan Turing asked. But weto this day do not have scientific\nonsensus around even what humanintelligence is. And so to peg an entiresearch field and a technology to the\nbasis of human intelligence is a verytricky endeavor because there are nogood metrics to assess have we actually\ngotten there yet and there's noblueprint to say what should AI looklike and how should it work andultimately who should it serve. And so\nwhen OpenAI took up this mission ofartificial general intelligence, theywere able to essentially shape and mold\nwhat they wanted this technology to bebased on what is most convenient forthem. But when they identified it, it\nwas at a time when scientists reallylooked down on this term even AGI. Andso they absorbed just a small group of\nself-identified AGI believers. This iswhy I call it quasi religious becausethere's no scientific evidence that we\ncan actually develop AGI. The people whoare strongly con have this strongconviction that they will do it and that\nit's going to happen soon. It is justpurely based on belief and they talkabout it as a belief too. But there are\ntwo factions within this belief systemof the AGI religion. There are peoplewho think AGI is going to bring us to\nutopia and there are people who thinkAGI is going to destroy all of humanity.Both of them believe that it ispossible. It's coming soon. And\ntherefore they conclude that they needto be the ones to control the technologyand not democratize it. And this is\nultimately what leads to your questionof what happened when Sam Alman wasfired and rehired through the history of\nOpenAI. There's been a lot of clashingbetween the boomers and doomers aboutwho should actually>> the boomers and doomers.\n>> The boomers and the doomers. [laughter]>> Those that say it'll bring us theapocalypse. topia boomers and those that\nsay it'll destroy humanity. The doomersand they have clashed relentlessly andaggressively about how quickly to build\nthe technology, how quickly to releasethe technology and ultimately Altman isone that he is really good at saying to\npeople what they need to hear and hewill say different things to differentpeople if he thinks they need to hear\ndifferent things. So when I askedboomers, is Altman a boomer? They said\nyes. When I asked doomers, is Altman adoomer? They said yes. And I want to\ntake this up until today to um inJanuary, the Trump administrationannouncing the Stargate project, a $500\nbillion project to boost AIinfrastructure in the United States.This is Open AI Sam Alman speakingalongside President Trump.\nI think this will be the most importantproject of this era and as Masa said forAGI to get built here to create hundreds\nof thousands of jobs to create a newindustry centered here. Uh we wouldn'tbe able to do this without you Mr.President.\n>> He also there referred to AGI um uhartificial general intelligence. Explainwhat happened here and what this is and\nhas it actually happened. So Altmanbefore Trump was electedum he already was sensing throughobservation that it was possible that\nhe administration would shift and thathe would need to start politicking quiteheavily to ingruiate himself to a new\nadministration.Alman is very strategic. Um he was undera lot of pressure at the time as wellbecause his original co-founder Elon\nMusk now has great beef with him. UhMusk feels like Alman used his name andhis money to set up OpenAI and then he\ngot nothing in return. So Musk had beensuing him, still suing him and suddenlybecame first buddy of the Trump\nadministration. So Altman basicallycleverly orchestrateda um this announcement where by the waythe the announcement is quite strange\nbecause the Trump President Trump is notit's not the US government giving $500billion. It's private investment coming\ninto the US um from places like SoftBank>> which is>> uh which is one of the largestinvestment funds um run by Masay Yoshi\nSon a Japanese businessman who made alot of his wealth from the previous techera. So, so it's not even the USgovernment that's that's providing this\nmoney.>> And take that right through to now thatGulf trip that um Elon Musk was on, butso was Sam Alman to the fury of Elon\nMusk and then a deal was sealed in AbuDhabi.>> Yeah.>> It didn't include Elon Musk but wasabout open AI.>> Exactly. So Altman has continued to try\nand use the US government as a way to toget access to more places and uh morepowerful spaces to build out thisempire. And one of the one of the things\nbecause OpenAI's computationalinfrastructure needs are so aggressive.You know, I had an OpenAI employee tell\nme we're running out of land and power.So they are running out of resources inthe US which is why they're trying to\nget access to land and energy in otherplaces. The Middle East has a lot ofland and has a lot of energy and they're\nwilling to strike deals and that is whyAltman was part of that trip looking tostrike a deal and what they the deal\nthat they struck was to build a massivedata center or multiple data centers inthe Middle East using their land and\ntheir energy. But one of the things thatOpenAI has recently rolled out, theycall it the OpenAI for countries program\nand it is this idea that they want toinstall OpenAI hardware and software inplaces around the world and explicitly\nsays we want to build democratic AIrails.We want to install our hardware andsoftware as a foundation of democratic\nAI globally so that we can stop Chinafrom installing authoritarian AIglobally. But the thing that he does not\nacknowledge is that there is nothingdemocratic about what he's doing. Youknow, the Atlantic executive editor says\nwe need to call these companies for whathey are. They are technoauthoritarians. They do not ask thepublic for any perspective on how they\ndevelop the technology, what data theytrain the technology on, where theydevelop these data centers. In fact,\nthese data centers are often developedin the cover of night um under shellcompanies like Meta recently entered New\nMexico under the Shell company namedGreater Kudu LLC.>> Greater Kudu.LLC. And once the deal wasactually closed and the residents\ncouldn't do anything about anymore,that's when it was revealed, surprise,we're Meta and you're going to get a\ndata center that drinks all of yourfresh water.>> And then there was this wholecontroversy in Memphis around a data\ncenter.>> Yes. So that is the data center thatElon Musk is building. So meanwhile,Musk is saying Alman is terrible.\nEveryone should use my AI. And ofcourse, his AI is also being developedusing the same environmental and public\nhealth costs. So he built this massivesupercomputer called Colossus inMemphis, Tennessee that's training\nGrock, the chatbot that people canaccess through X and that is beingpowered byaround 35 unlicensed methane gas\nturbines that are pumping thousands oftons of toxic air pollutants into thegreater Memphis community. And that\ncommunity has long suffered a lack ofaccess to clean air, a fundamental humanright.>> So I want to go to interestingly Sam\nAlman testifying in front of Congressabout solutions to the high energyconsumption of artificial intelligence.\n>> In the short term, I think this probablylooks like more natural gas. Um althoughthere are some applications where I\nthink solar can really help. In themedium-term, I hope it's advancednuclear uh fish and fusion. More energy\nis important well beyond AI.>> So that's open AI's Sam Alman. This istestifying before the Senate and talking\nabout everything from uh solar tonuclear power. Something that was foughtin the United States by environmental\nactivists for decades. So you have thesehuge old uh nuclear power plants, butmany say you can't make them safe no\nmatter how small. and smart you makethem.>> This is one of the things of the manythings that I'm concerned about with the\ncurrent trajectory of AI development.This is a second order tertiary ordereffect is that because these companies\nare trying to claim that the AIdevelopment approach they took doesn'thave climate harms. They are explicitly\nevoking nuclear again and again andagain as nuclear will solve the problem.And it has been effective. I have talked\nwith certain AI researchers who thoughthe problem was solved because ofnuclear and in order to try and actually\nbuild more and more nuclear plants, theyare lobbying governments to try andunwind the regulatory structure around\nnuclear power plant building. I meanthis is this is like crazy on so manylevels that they're not just trying to\ndevelop these the AI technologyrecklessly. They are also trying to laydown infrastructure and nuclearinfrastructure in this move fast break\nthings ideology. But for those who umare environmentalists and have longopposed nuclear will they be sucked in\nby the solar alternative? But that exact\nso data centers have to run 247. So theycannot actually run on just renewables.That is why the companies keep trying to\nevoke nuclear as the solve all but solardoes not actually work when we do nothave sufficient enough energy storage\nsolutions for that 24/7 operation. We'llreturn to our conversation in a minutewith Karen How, author of the new book\nEmpire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares inSam Alman's Open AI. Stay with us.This is Democracy Now! Democracynow.org.\nI'm Amy Goodman. In this holidayspecial, we're speaking with thejournalist Karen How, author of the newbook Empire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares\nin Sam Alman's Open AI. She came intour studio in May. She lives in HongKong. I asked her to talk about what'shappening in China around artificial\nintelligence.>> China and the US are the largest hubsfor AI research. They are the largestconcentration of AI research talent\nglobally. Um, China other than SiliconValley, China really is the only otherival in terms of talent density and the\namount of capital investment and theamount of infrastructure that is goinginto AI development. In the last few\nyears, what we have seen is the USgovernment has been aggressively tryingto stay number one and one of themechanisms that they have used is export\ncontrols. A key input into these AImodels is the computationalinfrastructure and the computer chipsfor installing into the data centers for\ntraining these models. And thesecomputer chips are the in order todevelop the AI models. Companies areusing the most bleeding edge computer\nchip technology. It's like the every twoyears a new chip comes out and theyimmediately start using that to train\nthe next generation of AI models. Thosecomputer chips are designed by Americancompanies, the most prominent one being\nNvidia in California. And so the USgovernment has been trying to use exportcontrols to prevent Chinese companies\nfrom getting access to the most cuttingedge computer chips. That has all beenunder the recommendation of Silicon\nValley saying this is the way to preventChina from being number one. and likeput export controls on them and don't\nregulate us at all so we can stay numberone and they will fall behind. What hashappened insteadis because there is a strong base of\ntalent of AI research talent in Chinaunder the constraints of fewercomputational resources, Chinesecompanies have actually been able to\ninnovate and develop the same level ofAI model capabilities as Americancompanies with two orders of magnitude\nless computational resources, lessenergy, less data. So, I'm talkingspecifically about um the Chinesecompany Highfire, which developed this\nmodel called Deep Seek earlier this yearthat briefly tanked the global economybecause the company said that their\num training this one AI model costaround $6 million when OpenAI wastraining models that cost hundreds ofmillions if not over tens of billions of\ndollars. And that delta demonstrated topeople that this what Silicon Valley hastried to convince everyone for the last\nfew years that this is the only path togetting more AI capabilities is totallyfalse and actually the techniques that\nchi the Chinese company was using wereones that existed in the literature andjust had to be assembled. They used a\nlot of engineering sophistication to dothat, but they weren't actually usingfundamentally new techniques. They were\nones that actually already existed.>> So explain it further because I think alot of people just can't get their minds\naround this. How do you do thistraining?\n>> So there's software called neuralnetworks which is essentially a massivestatistical engine. is doing lots and\nlots of sophisticated statisticalcomputation to try and ascertain whatkinds of patterns exist in data sets. So\ntypically in in the past before we goto large language models it would bedoing something like um looking at MRI\nscans and checking the patterns of whatdoes cancer look like in an MRIscan. Um now with GBT what it's looking\nat is what are the patterns of theEnglish language? what is the syntax,\nthe structure, figures of speech thatare typically used and then it usesthose patterns to construct newsentences. That's how generative AI\nworks. And the reason why it's socomputationally expensive is becauseit's crunching the numbers for those\npatterns. And the more data you feed in,the more it has to crunch. And so it weused to train these AI models on you\nknow a powerful laptop like maybe onecomputer chip maybe the richest labsacademic labs like MIT they would be uh\ntraining on a couple or a dozen computerchips and companies like Google theywould be training maybe on a couple\nhundred computer chips. We are nowtalking about hundreds of thousands ofcomputer chips training a single model.\nUm and that is the you know that is whatopen AI says is necessary to build thesetechnologies and that is what deepseek\nproved wrong. So, let me ask yousomething, Karen. uh the latest news umas you're traveling in the United States\nbefore you go back to Hong Kong uh ofTrump's attack on academia, how thisfits in. Um how could Trump's attack on\ninternational students specificallytargeting the what more than 250,000 aquarter of a million Chinese students\nand revoking their visas impact thefuture of the AI industry. But not justChinese students because what's going on\nhere now is terrifying students aroundthe world and because labs are shuttingdown in all kinds of ways here uh US\nstudents as well uh deciding to goabroad.This is just the latest action that theUS government has taken over the last\nfew years to really alienate a keytalent pool for US innovation.Originally, there were more Chineseresearchers working in the US\ncontributing to US AI than there were inChina because [snorts] just a few yearsago, Chinese researchers aspired to work\nfor American companies. They wanted tomove to the US. They wanted tocontribute to the US economy. Theydidn't want to go back to their home\ncountry. But because of what was calledthe China Initiative, which was the afirst Trump era initiative to try and\ncriminalize Chinese academics orethnically Chinese academics, some ofwhom were actually Americans um based on\njust paperwork errors. They would accusethem of being spies. That was one of thefirst actions. Then of course the\npandemic happened and the USChina tradescalations started amplifyinganti-Chinese rhetoric. All of these led\nand now with the potential ban oninternational students. All of thesehave led more and more Chineseresearchers to just opt for staying at\nhome and contributing to the Chinese AIecosystem. And this was a prerequisiteto High-fly pulling off Deepseek. If\nthere had not been that concentrationand buildup of AI talent in China, theyprobably would have had a much harder\ntime innovating around circumventingthese export controls that the USgovernment was imposing on them. But\nbecause they now have a highconcentration of top talent, some of thetop talent globally,when those restrictions were imposed,\nthey were able to innovate around them.So Deepseek is literally a product ofthis continuation of that alienation and\nwith the US continuing to take thistance, it is just going to get worse.And as you mentioned, it's not justChinese researchers. I literally just\nalked to a friend in academia that saidshe's considering going to Europe nowbecause she just cannot survive without\nhat public funding. And Europe Europeancountries are seeing a criticalopportunity offering milliondoll\npackages. Come here, we'll give you alab. We'll give you millions of dollarsof funding. I mean this is the fastest\nway to brain drain this country.>> I mean what many are saying US's braindrain is their brain gain. Yes.>> And this also reminds us of history. You\nhave the Chinese rocket scientist ChenShuen who in the 1950s was inexplicablyheld under house arrest for years and\nthen Eisenhower has him deported toChina. He becomes the father of rocketscience and uh China's entry into space.\nAnd he said he would never again stepfoot into the United States even thoughoriginally that was the only place he\nwanted to live.>> Yes. And there was a I believe agovernment official, a US governmentofficial who said that was the dumbest\nmistake the US ever made.>> Um you we talk about the brain drain andthe brain gain. Okay. Again, uh somemore rhyming, the doomers and the\nboomers. Um, I want to talk about whatan AI apocalypse looks like, meaning howit brings us to apocalypse, but also um\nhow uh people say it could lead us to autopia. What are the two trackstrajectories?\n>> It's a great question and I ask boomersand doomers this all the time. Can youarticulate to me exactly how we get\nhere? And the issue is that they\ncannot. And this is why I call it quasireligious. It really is based on belief.I mean, I was talking with oneresearcher who identified as a boomer.\nAnd I said, you know, he his his eyeswere wide and he he really lit upsaying, you know, once we get to AGI,game over. Everything becomes perfect.\nAnd I asked him, I was like, can youexplain to me how does AGI feed peoplethat haven't don't have food on thetable right now? And he was like, \"Oh,\nyou're talking about like the floorand how to elevate their qualityof life.\" And I was like, \"Yes, becausethey are also part of all of humanity.\"\nAnd he was like, \"I'm not really surehow that would happen, but I think itcould it could help the middle class get\nmore economic opportunity.\" And I waslike, \"Okay, but how does that happen aswell?\" And he was like, \"Well, once\nthese come once we have AGI and it canjust create trillions of dollars ofeconomic value, we can just give them\ncash payouts.\" And I was like, who'sgiving them cash payouts? What\ninstitutions are giving them? You know,\nlike it it doesn't when you actuallytest their logic, it doesn't reallyhold. And with the doomers, I mean, it's\nthe same thing. like their belief isultimatelywhat I realized when reporting on thebook is they believe AGI is possible\nbecause of their belief of how the humanbrain works. They believe humanintelligence is inherently fullycomputational. So if you have enough\ndata and you have enough computationalresources, you will inevitably be ableto recreate human intelligence. It's\njust a matter of time. And to them, thereason why there would that would leadto an apocalyptic scenario is humans, we\nlearn and improve our intelligencethrough communication. And communicationis inefficient. We miscommunicate all\nthe time. And so for AI intelligences,they would be able to rapidly getsmarter and smarter and smarter byhaving perfect communication with one\nanother as digital intelligences. And somany of these people who selfidentify asdoomers say there has never been in the\nhistory of the the universe a speciesthat was superior to another species a aspecies that was able to rule over um a\nmore superior species. So they thinkthat ultimately AI will evolve into ahigher species and then start ruling us\nand then maybe decide to get rid of usaltogether. I'm wondering if you cantalk about any model of a country, not a\ncompany,>> that is pioneering a way ofdemocratically controlled artificialintelligence.>> I don't think it's actively happening\nright now.The EU has had the EU AI act, which istheir major piece of legislation tryingto develop a riskbased, rightsbased\nframework for governing AI umdeployment.Buto me, one of the keys of democratic AIgovernance is also democratically\ndeveloping AI. And I don't think anycountry is really doing that. And what Imean by that is there are AI has asupply chain. It needs data. It needs\nland. It needs energy. It needs water.And it also needs spaces in which thesecompanies need access to to then deploy\ntheir technology. Schools, hospitals,government agencies. Silicon Valley hasdone a really good job over the last\ndecade of making people feel that theircollectively owned resources are SiliconValleys. You know, I have I talk with\nfriends all the time who say, \"We don'thave data privacy anymore.\" So, like,what's more what's what is more data to\nthese companies? Like, I'm fine just\ngiving them all of my data. But thatdata is yours. You know, thatintellectual property is the writers andartists intellectual property. That land\nis a community's land. Those schools arethe students and teachers schools. Thehospitals are the doctors and nurses and\npatients hospitals. These are all sitesof democratic contestation in thedeployment in the development and the\ndeployment of AI. And just like thoseChilean water activists that we talkedabout who aggressively understood that\nfresh water was theirs and theywere not willing to give it up unlessthey got some kind of mutuallybeneficial agreement for it. We need to\nhave that spirit in protectingour data, our land, our water, and ourschools so that companies inevitablywill have to adjust their approach\nbecause they will no longer get accessto the resources they need or the spacesthat they need to deploy in. In 2022,\nKaren, you wrote a piece for MITechnology Review headlined a new visionof artificial intelligence for the\npeople. In a remote rural town in NewZealand, an indigenous couple ischallenging what AI could be and who it\nshould serve. Who are they? This was a\nwonderful story that I did where thecouple um they run to media. It's anonprofit MAI radio station in NewZealand. And the Maui people have\nsuffered a lot of the same um challengesas many indigenous peoples around theworld. The history of colonization led\nthem to rapidly lose their language andthere are very few Mauy speakers in theworld anymore. And so in the last few\nyears there's been an attempt to revivethe language and the New Zealandgovernment has tried to repent by by\ntrying to encourage that the revival ofthat language. But this nonprofit radiostation, they had all this wonderful\narchival material, archival audio oftheir ancestors speaking the Mailanguage that they wanted to provide to\nMaui speakers, ma Mai learners aroundthe world as an educational resource.The problem is in order to do that they\nneeded to transcribe the audio so thatMai learners could actually listen, seewhat was being said, click on the words,\nunderstand the translation and actuallyturn it into an active learning tool.But there were so few Maui speakers that\ncan speak at that advanced level thathey realized they had to turn to AI.And this is a key part of my book'sargument is I'm not critiquing all AI\ndevelopment. I'm specifically critiquingthe scale at all cost approach thatSilicon Valley has taken. But there are\nmany different kinds of beneficial AImodels, including what they ended updoing. So they took a fundamentally\ndifferent approach. First and foremost,they asked their community, do we wanthis AI tool? Once the community said\nyes, then they moved to the next step ofasking people to fully consent todonating data for the training of this\ntool. They explained to the communitywhat this data was for, how it would beused, how they would then guard that\ndata and make sure that it wasn't usedfor other purposes.They collected around a couple hundredhours of audio data in just a few days\nbecause the community rallied supportaround this project and only a couplehundred hours was enough to create a\nperformant speech recognition modelwhich is crazy when you think about thescales of data that these Silicon Valley\ncompanies require. And that is onceagain a lesson that can be learned isactually there's plenty of research that\nshows when you have highly curated smalldata sets, you can actually create verypowerful AI models and then once they\nhad that tool, they were able to doexactly what they wanted to open sourceand resour uh open source thiseducational resource to their community.\nAnd so my vision for AI development inthe future is to have more smalltaskspecific AI models that are notrained on vast polluted data sets but\nsmall curated data sets and thereforeonly need small amounts of computationalpower and can be deployed in challenges\nthat we actually need to tackle forhumanity.mitigating climate change by integratingmore renewable energy into the grid,\nimproving health care, by doing moredrug discovery.>> So, as we finally do wrap up, what youwere most shocked by, you've been doing\nuh this journalism, this research foryears, what you were most shocked by inwriting Empire of AI.I originally thought that I was going to\nwrite a book focused on vertical harmsof the AI supply chain. Here's how laborexploitation happens in the AI industry.\nHere's how the environmental harms arearising out of the AI industry. And athe end of my reporting, I realized that\nhere is a horizontal harm that'shappening here. Every single communitythat I spoke to, whether it was artists\nhaving their intellectual property takenor Chilean water water activists havingtheir fresh water taken, they all said\nthat when they encountered the empire,they initially felt exactly the sameway. A complete loss of agency to\nself-determine their future. And that iswhen I realized the horizontal harm hereis AI is threatening democracy. If the\nmajority of the world is going to feelthis loss of agency overself-determining their future, democracycannot survive and again specifically\nSilicon Valley's approach scale at allcosts AI development.>> But you also chronicle the resistance.You talk about how the Chilean water\nactors felt at first, how the artistsfeel at first. So talk about thestrategies that these people havemployed and if they've been effective.\n>> So the amazing thing is that there hasince been so much push back. Theartists have then said wait a minute we\ncan sue these companies. The Chileanwater activists said wait a minute wecan fight back and protect these water\nesources. The Kenyan workers that Ispoke to who are contracted by OpenAIthey said we can unionize and escalate\nour story to international mediattention. And so even in these evenwhen I thought that these communitiesyou could argue are the most vulnerable\nin the world have the least amount ofagency, they were the ones thatremembered that they do have agency andthat they can seize that agency and\nfight back. And I think it it was it wasremarkably heartening to encounter thosepeople to remind me that actually the\nfirst step to reclaiming democracy isremembering that no one can take youragency away.>> Karen How, author of the new book Empire\nof AI: Dreams and Nightmares and SamAlman's Open AI. Karen How is a formereporter at the Wall Street Journal and\nMIT Technology Review. And that does itfor this special broadcast. [music]Democracy Now is produced with Mike\nBurke, Renee Fel, Dina Guster, MessiahRhodess, Nurmine Shake, Maria Terasena,Nicole Salazar, [music] Sarin Nasser,\nTrina Nadura, Sam Alov, T Maria Joe,John Hamilton, Robbie [music] Karen,Honey Massud, and Safwet Naz. Our\nexecutive directors, Julie Crosby.Special thanks to Becca Stelli, JohnRandolph, Paul Powell, [music] Mike\nDeFippo, Miguel Nggera, Hugh Grant, CarlMarxer, Dennis Moahan, David Prud,Dennis McCormack, Matt Elely, Anna\nOsbeck, Emily Anderson, Dante Toriieri,Buffy [music] St. Marie Hernandez withJuan Gonzalez. I'm Amy Goodman. Happy\nNew Year.Thanks for watching Democracy Now onYouTube. Subscribe to the channel andturn on notifications to make sure you\nnever miss a video. And for more of ouraudience supported journalism, go todemocracynow.org or where you can\ndownload our news app, sign up for ournewsletter, subscribe to the dailypodcast, and so much", "language": "en", "duration": 3375.0, "segments": [ { "id": 0, "start": 3.2, "end": 12.32, "text": "This is democracyow [music]democracynow.orgthe War and Peace Report. I'm AmyGoodman. The Empire of AI, that's the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 1, "start": 12.32, "end": 20.32, "text": "name of a new book by journalist KarenHow, who's been closely reporting on therise of the artificial intelligence", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 2, "start": 20.32, "end": 31.359, "text": "industry with a focus on Sam Alman'sOpen AI. That's the company behind ChatGPT. Karen how compares the actions of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 3, "start": 31.359, "end": 40.32, "text": "the AI industry to those of colonialpowers of the past. She writes, quote,\"The empires of AI are not engaged in", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 4, "start": 40.32, "end": 48.399, "text": "the same overt violence and brutalitythat marked this history, but they tooseize and extract precious resources to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 5, "start": 48.399, "end": 56.879, "text": "feed their vision of artificialintelligence. the work of artists andwriters, the data of countlessindividuals posting about their", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 6, "start": 56.879, "end": 65.92, "text": "experiences and observations online, theland, energy, and water required tohouse and run massive data centers and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 7, "start": 65.92, "end": 75.52, "text": "supercomputers. She writes, \"Over thepast year, the Trump administration hasincreasingly embraced the AI industry.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 8, "start": 75.52, "end": 82.88, "text": "In December, Trump signed an executiveorder to bar states and localgovernments from enacting their own AI", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 9, "start": 82.88, "end": 92.0, "text": "regulations. Soon after he signed theorder, his family's company, Trump Mediand Technology, announced a $6 billion", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 10, "start": 92.0, "end": 100.88, "text": "merger with a firm aiming to build theworld's first viable nuclear fusionplant to power AI projects. Karen How is", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 11, "start": 100.88, "end": 109.04, "text": "a former reporter at the Wall StreetJournal and MIT Technology Review whereshe became the first journalist to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 12, "start": 109.04, "end": 118.159, "text": "profile open AI. Democracy Now's JuanGonzalez and I spoke to her in May. TheNational Book Critic Circle recently", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 13, "start": 118.159, "end": 128.0, "text": "named her book The Empire of AI: Dreamsand Nightmares and Sam Alman's Open AIas a finalist for best non-fiction book", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 14, "start": 128.0, "end": 140.16, "text": "of 2025.I began by asking Karen How to explainjust what artificial intelligence is. SoAI is a collection of many different", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 15, "start": 140.16, "end": 147.68, "text": "echnologies but most people wereintroduced to it through chatbt and whatI argue in the book and what the title", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 16, "start": 147.68, "end": 154.16, "text": "refers to empire of AI it's actually acritique of the specific trajectory ofAI development that led us to chatbt and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 17, "start": 154.16, "end": 162.72, "text": "has continued since chatbt and that ispecifically Silicon Valley's scale atall costs approach to AI development AI", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 18, "start": 162.72, "end": 170.48, "text": "models in modern day they are trained ondata they need computers to train themon that data. But what Silicon Valley", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 19, "start": 170.48, "end": 177.76, "text": "did and what OpenAI did in the last fewyears is they started blowing up theamount of data and the the size of the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 20, "start": 177.76, "end": 183.84, "text": "computers that need to do this training.So we are talking about the full Englishlanguage internet being fed into these", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 21, "start": 183.84, "end": 190.72, "text": "models, books, scientific articles, allof the intellectual property that isbeing created and also massive", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 22, "start": 190.72, "end": 197.04, "text": "supercomputers that run tens ofthousands even hundreds of thousands ofcomputer chips that are the size of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 23, "start": 197.04, "end": 205.36, "text": "dozens maybe hundreds of football fieldsand use practically the entire energydemands of cities now. So this is an", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 24, "start": 205.36, "end": 211.84, "text": "extraordinary um type of AI developmenthat is causing a lot of social, laborand environmental harms and that is", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 25, "start": 211.84, "end": 220.48, "text": "ultimately why I evoke this analogy toempire.>> And Karen, could you talk some moreabout not only the energy requirements", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 26, "start": 220.48, "end": 230.0, "text": "but the water requirements of these hugedata centers that are essence in essencethe backbone of of this uh widening uh", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 27, "start": 230.0, "end": 231.03, "text": "industry?", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 28, "start": 231.04, "end": 236.56, "text": ">> Absolutely. I'll give you two stats onboth the energy and the water. Whentalking about the energy demand,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 29, "start": 236.56, "end": 243.92, "text": "McKenzie recently came out with a reporthat said in the next 5 years based onthe current pace of AI computational", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 30, "start": 243.92, "end": 253.04, "text": "infrastructure expansion, we would needto put as much energy on the global gridas what is consumed by two to six times", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 31, "start": 253.04, "end": 262.479, "text": "the energy consumed annually by thestate of California. And that willmostly be serviced by fossil fuels.We're already seeing reporting of uh", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 32, "start": 262.479, "end": 269.12, "text": "coal plants with their lives beingextended. They were supposed to retirebut now they cannot to support this data", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 33, "start": 269.12, "end": 276.8, "text": "center development. We are seeingmethane gas turbines, unlicensed onesbeing popped up to uh service these data", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 34, "start": 276.8, "end": 284.08, "text": "centers as well. From a freshwaterperspective, these data centers need tobe trained on freshwater. They cannot be", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 35, "start": 284.08, "end": 290.0, "text": "trained on any other type of waterbecause it can corrode the equipment. Itcan lead to bacterial growth and most of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 36, "start": 290.0, "end": 298.08, "text": "the time it actually taps directly intoa public drinking water supply becausethat is the infrastructure that has been", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 37, "start": 298.08, "end": 305.919, "text": "laid to deliver this clean fresh waterto different businesses to differenthomes. And Bloomberg recently had an", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 38, "start": 305.919, "end": 313.68, "text": "alysis where they looked at thexpansion of these data centers aroundthe world and 2thirds of them are being", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 39, "start": 313.68, "end": 321.84, "text": "placed in water scarce areas. So they'rebeing placed in communities that do nothave access to fresh water. So it's not", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 40, "start": 321.84, "end": 327.52, "text": "just the total amount of fresh waterthat we need to be concerned about, butactually the distribution of this", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 41, "start": 327.52, "end": 337.84, "text": "infrastructure around the world.And most people are familiar with chatGPT the consumer aspect of AI but what", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 42, "start": 337.84, "end": 345.6, "text": "about the military uh aspect of AI wherein essence uh we're finding SiliconValley companies becoming the next", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 43, "start": 345.6, "end": 353.199, "text": "generation of defense contractors.>> One of the reasons why OpenAI and manyother companies are turning to the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 44, "start": 353.199, "end": 359.6, "text": "defense industry is because they havespent an extraordinary amount of moneyin developing these technologies.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 45, "start": 359.6, "end": 367.52, "text": "They're spending hundreds of billions totrain these models and they need torecoup those costs and there are only so", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 46, "start": 367.52, "end": 375.36, "text": "many industries and so many places thathave that size of a paycheck to pay. Andso that's why we're seeing a cozying up", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 47, "start": 375.36, "end": 382.72, "text": "to the defense industry. We're alsoseeing Silicon Valley use the USgovernment in their empire buildingambitions. You could argue that the US", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 48, "start": 382.72, "end": 389.039, "text": "government is also trying to use SiliconValley vice versa in their empirebuilding ambitions. Um but certainly", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 49, "start": 389.039, "end": 399.039, "text": "these technologies are not they are notdesigned to be used in a sensitivemilitary context. And so the theaggressive push of these companies to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 50, "start": 399.039, "end": 404.8, "text": "try and get those defense contracts andintegrate their technologies more andmore to the into the infrastructure of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 51, "start": 404.8, "end": 412.56, "text": "the military is really alarming. Iwanted to go to the countries you wento or the stories you covered because I", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 52, "start": 412.56, "end": 420.24, "text": "mean this is amazing the depth of youreporting from Kenya to Uruguay toChile. Um you were talking about the use", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 53, "start": 420.24, "end": 428.24, "text": "of water and I also want to ask youabout nuclear power. Uh but in Chile umwhat is happening there around these", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 54, "start": 428.24, "end": 435.52, "text": "data centers and the water they woulduse and the resistance to that.>> Yeah. So Chile has an interestinghistory in that it's been under it was", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 55, "start": 435.52, "end": 445.44, "text": "under a dictatorship for a very longtime. And so during that time, mostpublic resources were privatized,including water. But because of an", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 56, "start": 445.44, "end": 451.44, "text": "omaly, there's one community in thegreater Santiago metropolitan regionthat actually still has access to a", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 57, "start": 451.44, "end": 458.96, "text": "public freshwater resource that servicesboth that community as well as the restof the country in emergency situations.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 58, "start": 458.96, "end": 468.479, "text": "That is the exact community that Googlechose to try to put a data center in>> and it would be free>> and it, you know, I have no idea. That", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 59, "start": 468.479, "end": 476.319, "text": "is a great question. But what thecommunity told me was they weren't evenpaying taxes for this because they they", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 60, "start": 476.319, "end": 481.52, "text": "believed based on reading thedocumentation that the taxes that Googlewas paying was in fact to where they had", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 61, "start": 481.52, "end": 488.479, "text": "registered their offices, theiradministrative offices, not where theywere putting down the data center. So", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 62, "start": 488.479, "end": 494.24, "text": "they were not seeing any benefit fromthis data center directly to thatcommunity and they were seeing no checks", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 63, "start": 494.24, "end": 500.96, "text": "placed on the fresh water that this datacenter would have been allowed toextract. And so these activists said,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 64, "start": 500.96, "end": 507.599, "text": "\"Wait a minute, absolutely not. We'renot going to allow this data center tocome in unless they give us a legitimate", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 65, "start": 507.599, "end": 515.44, "text": "reason for why it benefits us.\" And sothey started doing boots on the groundactivism, pushing back, knocking on", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 66, "start": 515.44, "end": 520.399, "text": "every single one of their neighborsdoors, handing out flyers to thecommunity, telling them this company is", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 67, "start": 520.399, "end": 526.8, "text": "taking our freshwater resources withoutgiving us anything in return. And sothey escalated so dramatically that it", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 68, "start": 526.8, "end": 531.839, "text": "escalated to Google Chile. It escalatedto Google Mountain View, which by theway then sent representatives to Chile", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 69, "start": 531.839, "end": 541.68, "text": "that only spoke English.But then it eventually escalated to theChilean government. And the Chileangovernment now has roundts where they", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 70, "start": 541.68, "end": 546.16, "text": "ask these community residents and thecompany representatives andrepresentatives from the government to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 71, "start": 546.16, "end": 552.64, "text": "come together to actually discuss how tomake data center development morebeneficial to the community. The", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 72, "start": 552.64, "end": 559.92, "text": "activists say it is the fight is notover. Just because they've been invitedto the table doesn't mean thateverything is suddenly better. They need", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 73, "start": 559.92, "end": 565.519, "text": "to stay vigilant. They need to continuescrutinizing these projects. But thusfar they've been able to block this", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 74, "start": 565.519, "end": 576.64, "text": "project for four to five years and havegained that seat at the table.>> And how is it that these uh westerncompanies in essence are exploiting", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 75, "start": 576.64, "end": 580.24, "text": "labor in the global south? You go into", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 76, "start": 580.24, "end": 584.64, "text": "something called data annotation firms.What what are those?", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 77, "start": 584.64, "end": 591.279, "text": ">> Yeah. So because AI modern day AIsystems are trained on massive amountsof data and they're sc that's scraped", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 78, "start": 591.279, "end": 599.279, "text": "from the internet, you can't actuallypump that data directly into your AImodel because there are a lot of things", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 79, "start": 599.279, "end": 605.279, "text": "within within that data. It's heavilypolluted. It needs to be cleaned. Itneeds to be annotated. So this is where", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 80, "start": 605.279, "end": 614.16, "text": "data annotation firms come in. These aremiddleman firms that hire contract laborto provide to these AI companies to do", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 81, "start": 614.16, "end": 621.6, "text": "that kind of data preparation. And openAI when it was starting to think aboutcommercializing its products and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 82, "start": 621.6, "end": 628.88, "text": "thinking about let's put text generationmachines that can spew any kind of textinto the hands of millions of users.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 83, "start": 628.88, "end": 634.88, "text": "They realized they needed to have somekind of content moderation. They neededto develop a filter that would wrap", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 84, "start": 634.88, "end": 642.32, "text": "around these models and prevent thesemodels from actually spewing racist,hateful, and harmful speech to users", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 85, "start": 642.32, "end": 648.64, "text": "that would not make a very goodcommercially viable product. And so theycontracted these middleman firms in", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 86, "start": 648.64, "end": 656.32, "text": "Kenya where the Kenyan workers had toread through reams of the worst text onthe internet as well as AI generated", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 87, "start": 656.32, "end": 663.6, "text": "text where open AI was prompting its ownAI models to imagine the worst text onthe internet and then telling these", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 88, "start": 663.6, "end": 671.839, "text": "Kenyan workers to detail to categorizethem in detailed taxonomies of is thisexual content, is this violent content,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 89, "start": 671.839, "end": 678.48, "text": "how graphic is that violent content inorder to teach its filter all thedifferent categories of content it had", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 90, "start": 678.48, "end": 685.12, "text": "to block. And this is incrediblyuncommon form of labor. There are lotsof other different types of contract", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 91, "start": 685.12, "end": 692.48, "text": "labor that they use. But these workers,they're paid a few bucks an hour, if atall. And just like the era of social", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 92, "start": 692.48, "end": 700.079, "text": "media, these content moderators are leftvery deeply psychologically traumatized.And ultimately, there is no real", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 93, "start": 700.079, "end": 706.64, "text": "philosophy behind why these workers arepaid a couple bucks an hour and havetheir lives destroyed. And why AI", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 94, "start": 706.64, "end": 712.24, "text": "researchers who also contribute to thesemodels are paid million-dollcompensation packages simply because", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 95, "start": 712.24, "end": 720.079, "text": "they sit in Silicon Valley in OpenAI'soffices. That is the logic of Empire.And that hearkens back to my title,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 96, "start": 720.079, "end": 730.32, "text": "Empire of AI.>> So, let's go back to your title, Empireof AI. the subtitle dreams andnightmares in Sam Alman's Open AI. So", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 97, "start": 730.32, "end": 737.839, "text": "tell us the story of Sam Alman and whatOpen AI is all about right through tothe deal he just made in the Gulf when", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 98, "start": 737.839, "end": 747.04, "text": "President Trump uh Sam Alman and ElonMusk were there. Alman is very much aproduct of Silicon Valley. His career", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 99, "start": 747.04, "end": 752.88, "text": "was first as a founder of a startup andthen as the president of Y Combinator,which is one of the most famous startup", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 100, "start": 752.88, "end": 760.8, "text": "accelerators in Silicon Valley, and thenthe CEO of OpenAI. And there's nocoincidence that OpenAI ended up", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 101, "start": 760.8, "end": 767.519, "text": "introducing the world to the scale atall cost approach to AI developmentbecause that is the way that Silicon", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 102, "start": 767.519, "end": 779.839, "text": "Valley has operated in the entire timethat Altman came up in it. And so he isa very strategic person. He isincredibly good at telling stories about", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 103, "start": 779.839, "end": 786.639, "text": "he future and painting these sweepingvisions that investors and employeeswant to be a part of. And so early on at", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 104, "start": 786.639, "end": 794.959, "text": "YC, he identified that AI would be oneof the trends that could take off. Andhe was trying to build a portfolio of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 105, "start": 794.959, "end": 800.639, "text": "different investments and differentinitiatives to place himself in thecenter of various different trends", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 106, "start": 800.639, "end": 806.16, "text": "depending on which one took off. He wasinvesting in quantum computing. He wasinvesting in nuclear fusion. He was", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 107, "start": 806.16, "end": 813.36, "text": "investing in self-driving cars. And hewas developing a fundamental AI researchlab. Ultimately, the AI research lab was", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 108, "start": 813.36, "end": 823.76, "text": "the ones that started acceleratingreally quickly. So he makes himself theCEO of that company. Um and andoriginally he started it as a nonprofit", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 109, "start": 823.76, "end": 832.8, "text": "o try and position it as a counter toforprofit driven incentives in SiliconValley. But within one and a half years,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 110, "start": 832.8, "end": 840.24, "text": "OpenAI's executives identified that ifthey wanted to be the lead in thispace, they had to go for this scale at", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 111, "start": 840.24, "end": 845.519, "text": "all cost approach and had to should bein quotes. They thought that they had todo this. There are actually many other", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 112, "start": 845.519, "end": 851.92, "text": "ways to develop AI and to have progressin AI that does not take this approach.But once they decided that, they", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 113, "start": 851.92, "end": 859.44, "text": "realized the bottleneck was capital. Itjust so happens Sam Alman is a once in ageneration fundraising talent. He", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 114, "start": 859.44, "end": 866.88, "text": "created this new structure nesting afor-profit arm within the nonprofit tobecome this fundraising vehicle for the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 115, "start": 866.88, "end": 873.44, "text": "tens of billions and ultimately hundredsof billions that they needed to pursuethe approach that they decided on. And", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 116, "start": 873.44, "end": 881.6, "text": "that is how we ultimately get to presentday OpenAI, which is one of the mostcapitalistic companies in the history of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 117, "start": 881.6, "end": 889.6, "text": "Silicon Valley, continuing to raisehundreds of billions and and Altman hasjoked even trillions to produce a", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 118, "start": 889.6, "end": 898.399, "text": "technology that ultimately has amiddling economic impact thus far. We'llreturn to our conversation in a minute", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 119, "start": 898.399, "end": 910.639, "text": "with Karen How, author of the new bookEmpire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares inSam Alman's Open AI. Stay with us.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 120, "start": 910.639, "end": 914.16, "text": "This is Democracy Now! democracynow.org.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 121, "start": 914.16, "end": 922.0, "text": "I'm Amy Goodman. In this holidayspecial, we continue with the journalistKaren How, author of the new book Empire", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 122, "start": 922.0, "end": 932.0, "text": "of AI: Dreams and Nightmares, and SamAlman's Open AI. Karen came into ourstudio in May when she discussed how AI", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 123, "start": 932.0, "end": 941.519, "text": "will impact workers.One of the things that we have seen isthis technology is already having a hugeimpact on jobs.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 124, "start": 941.519, "end": 948.48, "text": "Not necessarily because the technologyitself is really capable of replacingjobs, but it is perceived as capable", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 125, "start": 948.48, "end": 959.6, "text": "nough that executives are laying offworkers. And we need more some kind ofmore guard rails to actually prevent", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 126, "start": 959.6, "end": 970.399, "text": "hese companies from continuing to tryand develop labor automatingtechnologies and try to shift them toproducing labor assistive technologies.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 127, "start": 970.399, "end": 971.519, "text": "What do you mean?", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 128, "start": 971.519, "end": 980.72, "text": ">> So, open AI, their definition of whathey call artificial generalintelligence is highly autonomousystems that outperform humans in most", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 129, "start": 980.72, "end": 988.16, "text": "economically valuable work. So, theyexplicitly state that they are trying toautomate jobs away. I mean, what are", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 130, "start": 988.16, "end": 990.079, "text": "what is economically valuable work? But", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 131, "start": 990.079, "end": 999.279, "text": "he things that people do to get paid.Um but there's this really great bookcalled Power in Progress by MITeconomists Jeron Austin and Simon", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 132, "start": 999.279, "end": 1006.399, "text": "Johnson who mention that technologydevelopment all technology revolutionsthey take a labor automating approach", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 133, "start": 1006.399, "end": 1014.48, "text": "not because of inevitability but becausethe people at the top choose to automatethose jobs away. They choose to design", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 134, "start": 1014.48, "end": 1023.839, "text": "the technology so that they can sell ito executives and say you can shrinkyour costs by laying off all theseworkers and using our AI services", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 135, "start": 1023.839, "end": 1032.4, "text": "instead. But in the past, we've seenstudies that for example suggest that ifyou develop an AI tool that a doctor", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 136, "start": 1032.4, "end": 1039.28, "text": "uses rather than replacing the doctor,you will actually get better health carefor patients. you will get better di", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 137, "start": 1039.28, "end": 1045.6, "text": "cancer diagnoses. If you develop an AItool that teachers can use rather thanjust an AI tutor that replaces the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 138, "start": 1045.6, "end": 1052.559, "text": "teacher, your kids will get bettereducational outcomes. And so that's whatI mean by labor assistive than labor", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 139, "start": 1052.559, "end": 1058.72, "text": ">> and explain uh what you mean because Ithink a lot of people don't evenunderstand artificial intelligence. And", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 140, "start": 1058.72, "end": 1062.72, "text": "when you say replace the doctor, whatare you talking about?", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 141, "start": 1062.72, "end": 1069.6, "text": ">> Right. So these companies they try todevelop a technology that they positionas an everything machine that can do", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 142, "start": 1069.6, "end": 1079.919, "text": "anything. Um and so they will try to sayou can use this you can talk to chatbtfor therapy. No, you cannot. Chat GBT is", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 143, "start": 1079.919, "end": 1085.919, "text": "not a licensed therapist. And in fact,these models actually spew lots ofmedical misinformation. And there have", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 144, "start": 1085.919, "end": 1094.559, "text": "been lots of um examples of actuallyusers being psychologically harmed bythe model because the model will", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 145, "start": 1094.559, "end": 1102.48, "text": "continue to reinforce um selfharmingbehaviors. And we've even had caseswhere uh children who speak to chatbots", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 146, "start": 1102.48, "end": 1109.12, "text": "and develop huge emotional relationshipswith these chatbots have actually killedthemselves after using these chatbot", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 147, "start": 1109.12, "end": 1114.559, "text": "systems. Um but that's what I mean whenthese companies are trying to developlabor automating tools. They're", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 148, "start": 1114.559, "end": 1122.48, "text": "positioning it as you can now hire thistool instead of hire a worker. I mean,most recently, Sam Alman was speaking at", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 149, "start": 1122.48, "end": 1130.08, "text": "a conference and said, \"We originallysaid that these models were junior levelpartners at a law firm, and now we think", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 150, "start": 1130.08, "end": 1139.28, "text": "that they can really be more seniorcolleagues at a law firm.\" What he'saying is don't hire the junior levelpartners, don't hire the senior", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 151, "start": 1139.28, "end": 1148.16, "text": "colleagues, and just use our AI models.And we are already seeing the careerladder breaking because many different", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 152, "start": 1148.16, "end": 1155.28, "text": "white collar job uh white collar serviceindustries as well as other industriesare becoming convinced that they do not", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 153, "start": 1155.28, "end": 1161.36, "text": "need to hire interns. They do not needto hire entry-level positions that theyjust need these AI models and new", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 154, "start": 1161.36, "end": 1168.559, "text": "college graduates are struggling now tofind job opportunities to help them geta foothold into these industries. So,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 155, "start": 1168.559, "end": 1176.64, "text": "you've talked about Sam Alman, and inpart one, we touched on uh who he is,but I'd like you to go more deeply into", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 156, "start": 1176.64, "end": 1186.559, "text": "what uh who Sam Alman is, how hexploded onto the um US scene,testifying before Congress, actuallywarning about the dangers of AI. So,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 157, "start": 1186.559, "end": 1196.96, "text": "that really protected him in a way.>> Um people seeing him as a prophet.That's a P O P. But now, we can talkabout the other kind of prophet, P O Fit", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 158, "start": 1196.96, "end": 1205.36, "text": "T.um and how open AI was formed. How isopen AI different from AI?", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 159, "start": 1205.36, "end": 1215.44, "text": "OpenAI is a com I mean it was originallyfounded as a nonprofit as I mentionedand Alman specifically when he was", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 160, "start": 1215.44, "end": 1225.12, "text": "thinking about how do I make afundamental AI research lab that isgoing to make a big splash he chose tomake it a nonprofit because he", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 161, "start": 1225.12, "end": 1233.2, "text": "identified that if he could not competeon capital and he was relatively late tothe game Google already had a monopoly", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 162, "start": 1233.2, "end": 1241.52, "text": "on a lot of top AI research talent athe time if he could not compete oncapital and he could not compete um interms of being a first mover he", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 163, "start": 1241.52, "end": 1249.6, "text": "needed some other kind of ingredienthere to really recruit talent recruitum public goodwill and establish a name", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 164, "start": 1249.6, "end": 1258.159, "text": "for open AAI so he identified a missionhe identified let me make this anonprofit and let me give it a reallycompelling mission so the mission of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 165, "start": 1258.159, "end": 1266.88, "text": "openai is to ensure artificial generalintelligence benefits all of humanityAnd one of the quotes that I open my", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 166, "start": 1266.88, "end": 1276.0, "text": "book with is this quote that Sam Almancited himself in 2013 um in his blog. Hewas an avid blogger back in the day", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 167, "start": 1276.0, "end": 1283.6, "text": "talking about his learnings on businessand strategy and Silicon Valley startuplife. And the quote is successful people", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 168, "start": 1283.6, "end": 1291.2, "text": "built companies, more successful peoplebuild countries. The most successfulpeople build religions. And then he", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 169, "start": 1291.2, "end": 1297.52, "text": "reflects on that quote in his blogsaying, \"It appears to me that the bestway to build a religion is actually to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 170, "start": 1297.52, "end": 1306.24, "text": "build a company.\">> And so talk about how Alman was thenforced out of the company and then cameback. And also I just found it so", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 171, "start": 1306.24, "end": 1312.48, "text": "fascinating that you were able to speakwith so many Open AI workers. Youthought there was a kind of total ban on", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 172, "start": 1312.48, "end": 1319.36, "text": "you.>> Yes. Yeah. Exactly. So I was the firstjournalist to profile OpenAI. Um, Iembedded within the company for 3 days", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 173, "start": 1319.36, "end": 1326.88, "text": "in 2019 and then my profile published in2020 for MIT technology review and athe time I identified in the profile", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 174, "start": 1326.88, "end": 1333.76, "text": "this tension that I was seeing where itwas a nonprofit by name but behind thescenes a lot of the public values that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 175, "start": 1333.76, "end": 1338.96, "text": "hey exposed were actually the oppositeof how they operated. So they espousedtransparency but they were highly", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 176, "start": 1338.96, "end": 1346.72, "text": "secretive. They espousedcollaboriveness. They were highlycompetitive. and they espoused that theyhad no commercial intent, but in fact it", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 177, "start": 1346.72, "end": 1352.159, "text": "seemed like they had just gotten a $1billion investment from Microsoft. Itseems like they were rapidly going to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 178, "start": 1352.159, "end": 1358.32, "text": "develop commercial intent. And so Iwrote that into the profile and OpenAIwas deeply unhappy about it and they", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 179, "start": 1358.32, "end": 1364.64, "text": "would not refuse to talk to me for 3years. But when I started working on thebook, when I started reaching out to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 180, "start": 1364.64, "end": 1370.88, "text": "employees, current and former, Idiscovered that many employees actuallyreally liked the profile and they", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 181, "start": 1370.88, "end": 1379.2, "text": "specifically wanted to talk to mebecause they thought that I would dojustice to the truth of what hadactually happened within the company and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 182, "start": 1379.2, "end": 1387.52, "text": "be able to discover behind what thexecutives mythologized and narrativizedabout this technology [clears throat]", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 183, "start": 1387.52, "end": 1393.679, "text": "and about the course of this company. Iwould be able to actually get beneathat to the real heart of the matter.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 184, "start": 1393.679, "end": 1401.76, "text": "And so um one of the things that youreally have to understand about AIdevelopment today is that there are what", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 185, "start": 1401.76, "end": 1409.2, "text": "I call quasi religious movements thathave developed within Silicon Valley.The concept of artificial general", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 186, "start": 1409.2, "end": 1416.48, "text": "intelligence is not one that'scientifically grounded. It is this ideathat we can fundamentally recreate human", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 187, "start": 1416.48, "end": 1422.4, "text": "intelligence in computers. And this ideahas been around for actually a reallylong time. The field of AI was founded", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 188, "start": 1422.4, "end": 1428.32, "text": "all the way back in the 1950s and thatwas the original intent of the field.How do we recreate intelligence in", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 189, "start": 1428.32, "end": 1430.08, "text": "computers? Can machines think? That was", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 190, "start": 1430.08, "end": 1438.159, "text": "the famous question that Britishmathematician Alan Turing asked. But weto this day do not have scientific", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 191, "start": 1438.159, "end": 1445.84, "text": "onsensus around even what humanintelligence is. And so to peg an entiresearch field and a technology to the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 192, "start": 1445.84, "end": 1452.64, "text": "basis of human intelligence is a verytricky endeavor because there are nogood metrics to assess have we actually", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 193, "start": 1452.64, "end": 1462.159, "text": "gotten there yet and there's noblueprint to say what should AI looklike and how should it work andultimately who should it serve. And so", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 194, "start": 1462.159, "end": 1469.44, "text": "when OpenAI took up this mission ofartificial general intelligence, theywere able to essentially shape and mold", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 195, "start": 1469.44, "end": 1476.64, "text": "what they wanted this technology to bebased on what is most convenient forthem. But when they identified it, it", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 196, "start": 1476.64, "end": 1485.279, "text": "was at a time when scientists reallylooked down on this term even AGI. Andso they absorbed just a small group of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 197, "start": 1485.279, "end": 1492.159, "text": "self-identified AGI believers. This iswhy I call it quasi religious becausethere's no scientific evidence that we", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 198, "start": 1492.159, "end": 1499.279, "text": "can actually develop AGI. The people whoare strongly con have this strongconviction that they will do it and that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 199, "start": 1499.279, "end": 1505.279, "text": "it's going to happen soon. It is justpurely based on belief and they talkabout it as a belief too. But there are", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 200, "start": 1505.279, "end": 1511.919, "text": "two factions within this belief systemof the AGI religion. There are peoplewho think AGI is going to bring us to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 201, "start": 1511.919, "end": 1520.559, "text": "utopia and there are people who thinkAGI is going to destroy all of humanity.Both of them believe that it ispossible. It's coming soon. And", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 202, "start": 1520.559, "end": 1527.52, "text": "therefore they conclude that they needto be the ones to control the technologyand not democratize it. And this is", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 203, "start": 1527.52, "end": 1533.76, "text": "ultimately what leads to your questionof what happened when Sam Alman wasfired and rehired through the history of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 204, "start": 1533.76, "end": 1539.84, "text": "OpenAI. There's been a lot of clashingbetween the boomers and doomers aboutwho should actually>> the boomers and doomers.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 205, "start": 1539.84, "end": 1547.12, "text": ">> The boomers and the doomers. [laughter]>> Those that say it'll bring us theapocalypse. topia boomers and those that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 206, "start": 1547.12, "end": 1554.96, "text": "say it'll destroy humanity. The doomersand they have clashed relentlessly andaggressively about how quickly to build", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 207, "start": 1554.96, "end": 1564.799, "text": "the technology, how quickly to releasethe technology and ultimately Altman isone that he is really good at saying to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 208, "start": 1564.799, "end": 1570.96, "text": "people what they need to hear and hewill say different things to differentpeople if he thinks they need to hear", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 209, "start": 1570.96, "end": 1574.32, "text": "different things. So when I askedboomers, is Altman a boomer? They said", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 210, "start": 1574.32, "end": 1579.279, "text": "yes. When I asked doomers, is Altman adoomer? They said yes. And I want to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 211, "start": 1579.279, "end": 1588.799, "text": "take this up until today to um inJanuary, the Trump administrationannouncing the Stargate project, a $500", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 212, "start": 1588.799, "end": 1599.52, "text": "billion project to boost AIinfrastructure in the United States.This is Open AI Sam Alman speakingalongside President Trump.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 213, "start": 1599.52, "end": 1605.919, "text": "I think this will be the most importantproject of this era and as Masa said forAGI to get built here to create hundreds", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 214, "start": 1605.919, "end": 1611.83, "text": "of thousands of jobs to create a newindustry centered here. Uh we wouldn'tbe able to do this without you Mr.President.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 215, "start": 1611.84, "end": 1621.679, "text": ">> He also there referred to AGI um uhartificial general intelligence. Explainwhat happened here and what this is and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 216, "start": 1621.679, "end": 1634.08, "text": "has it actually happened. So Altmanbefore Trump was electedum he already was sensing throughobservation that it was possible that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 217, "start": 1634.08, "end": 1641.279, "text": "he administration would shift and thathe would need to start politicking quiteheavily to ingruiate himself to a new", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 218, "start": 1641.279, "end": 1650.48, "text": "administration.Alman is very strategic. Um he was undera lot of pressure at the time as wellbecause his original co-founder Elon", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 219, "start": 1650.48, "end": 1658.24, "text": "Musk now has great beef with him. UhMusk feels like Alman used his name andhis money to set up OpenAI and then he", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 220, "start": 1658.24, "end": 1666.08, "text": "got nothing in return. So Musk had beensuing him, still suing him and suddenlybecame first buddy of the Trump", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 221, "start": 1666.08, "end": 1676.559, "text": "administration. So Altman basicallycleverly orchestrateda um this announcement where by the waythe the announcement is quite strange", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 222, "start": 1676.559, "end": 1683.6, "text": "because the Trump President Trump is notit's not the US government giving $500billion. It's private investment coming", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 223, "start": 1683.6, "end": 1693.84, "text": "into the US um from places like SoftBank>> which is>> uh which is one of the largestinvestment funds um run by Masay Yoshi", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 224, "start": 1693.84, "end": 1702.24, "text": "Son a Japanese businessman who made alot of his wealth from the previous techera. So, so it's not even the USgovernment that's that's providing this", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 225, "start": 1702.24, "end": 1713.52, "text": "money.>> And take that right through to now thatGulf trip that um Elon Musk was on, butso was Sam Alman to the fury of Elon", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 226, "start": 1713.52, "end": 1725.2, "text": "Musk and then a deal was sealed in AbuDhabi.>> Yeah.>> It didn't include Elon Musk but wasabout open AI.>> Exactly. So Altman has continued to try", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 227, "start": 1725.2, "end": 1739.919, "text": "and use the US government as a way to toget access to more places and uh morepowerful spaces to build out thisempire. And one of the one of the things", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 228, "start": 1739.919, "end": 1746.72, "text": "because OpenAI's computationalinfrastructure needs are so aggressive.You know, I had an OpenAI employee tell", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 229, "start": 1746.72, "end": 1753.36, "text": "me we're running out of land and power.So they are running out of resources inthe US which is why they're trying to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 230, "start": 1753.36, "end": 1759.679, "text": "get access to land and energy in otherplaces. The Middle East has a lot ofland and has a lot of energy and they're", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 231, "start": 1759.679, "end": 1766.399, "text": "willing to strike deals and that is whyAltman was part of that trip looking tostrike a deal and what they the deal", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 232, "start": 1766.399, "end": 1775.36, "text": "that they struck was to build a massivedata center or multiple data centers inthe Middle East using their land and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 233, "start": 1775.36, "end": 1782.559, "text": "their energy. But one of the things thatOpenAI has recently rolled out, theycall it the OpenAI for countries program", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 234, "start": 1782.559, "end": 1793.44, "text": "and it is this idea that they want toinstall OpenAI hardware and software inplaces around the world and explicitly", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 235, "start": 1793.44, "end": 1805.039, "text": "says we want to build democratic AIrails.We want to install our hardware andsoftware as a foundation of democratic", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 236, "start": 1805.039, "end": 1815.919, "text": "AI globally so that we can stop Chinafrom installing authoritarian AIglobally. But the thing that he does not", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 237, "start": 1815.919, "end": 1823.36, "text": "acknowledge is that there is nothingdemocratic about what he's doing. Youknow, the Atlantic executive editor says", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 238, "start": 1823.36, "end": 1831.36, "text": "we need to call these companies for whathey are. They are technoauthoritarians. They do not ask thepublic for any perspective on how they", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 239, "start": 1831.36, "end": 1836.559, "text": "develop the technology, what data theytrain the technology on, where theydevelop these data centers. In fact,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 240, "start": 1836.559, "end": 1844.159, "text": "these data centers are often developedin the cover of night um under shellcompanies like Meta recently entered New", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 241, "start": 1844.159, "end": 1854.72, "text": "Mexico under the Shell company namedGreater Kudu LLC.>> Greater Kudu.LLC. And once the deal wasactually closed and the residents", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 242, "start": 1854.72, "end": 1858.96, "text": "couldn't do anything about anymore,that's when it was revealed, surprise,we're Meta and you're going to get a", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 243, "start": 1858.96, "end": 1864.32, "text": "data center that drinks all of yourfresh water.>> And then there was this wholecontroversy in Memphis around a data", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 244, "start": 1864.32, "end": 1872.159, "text": "center.>> Yes. So that is the data center thatElon Musk is building. So meanwhile,Musk is saying Alman is terrible.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 245, "start": 1872.159, "end": 1879.12, "text": "Everyone should use my AI. And ofcourse, his AI is also being developedusing the same environmental and public", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 246, "start": 1879.12, "end": 1885.039, "text": "health costs. So he built this massivesupercomputer called Colossus inMemphis, Tennessee that's training", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 247, "start": 1885.039, "end": 1896.88, "text": "Grock, the chatbot that people canaccess through X and that is beingpowered byaround 35 unlicensed methane gas", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 248, "start": 1896.88, "end": 1905.44, "text": "turbines that are pumping thousands oftons of toxic air pollutants into thegreater Memphis community. And that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 249, "start": 1905.44, "end": 1914.64, "text": "community has long suffered a lack ofaccess to clean air, a fundamental humanright.>> So I want to go to interestingly Sam", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 250, "start": 1914.64, "end": 1923.279, "text": "Alman testifying in front of Congressabout solutions to the high energyconsumption of artificial intelligence.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 251, "start": 1923.279, "end": 1929.36, "text": ">> In the short term, I think this probablylooks like more natural gas. Um althoughthere are some applications where I", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 252, "start": 1929.36, "end": 1936.0, "text": "think solar can really help. In themedium-term, I hope it's advancednuclear uh fish and fusion. More energy", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 253, "start": 1936.0, "end": 1944.32, "text": "is important well beyond AI.>> So that's open AI's Sam Alman. This istestifying before the Senate and talking", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 254, "start": 1944.32, "end": 1951.6, "text": "about everything from uh solar tonuclear power. Something that was foughtin the United States by environmental", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 255, "start": 1951.6, "end": 1958.48, "text": "activists for decades. So you have thesehuge old uh nuclear power plants, butmany say you can't make them safe no", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 256, "start": 1958.48, "end": 1965.279, "text": "matter how small. and smart you makethem.>> This is one of the things of the manythings that I'm concerned about with the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 257, "start": 1965.279, "end": 1972.0, "text": "current trajectory of AI development.This is a second order tertiary ordereffect is that because these companies", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 258, "start": 1972.0, "end": 1979.679, "text": "are trying to claim that the AIdevelopment approach they took doesn'thave climate harms. They are explicitly", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 259, "start": 1979.679, "end": 1985.36, "text": "evoking nuclear again and again andagain as nuclear will solve the problem.And it has been effective. I have talked", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 260, "start": 1985.36, "end": 1993.519, "text": "with certain AI researchers who thoughthe problem was solved because ofnuclear and in order to try and actually", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 261, "start": 1993.519, "end": 2004.0, "text": "build more and more nuclear plants, theyare lobbying governments to try andunwind the regulatory structure around", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 262, "start": 2004.0, "end": 2012.159, "text": "nuclear power plant building. I meanthis is this is like crazy on so manylevels that they're not just trying to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 263, "start": 2012.159, "end": 2022.32, "text": "develop these the AI technologyrecklessly. They are also trying to laydown infrastructure and nuclearinfrastructure in this move fast break", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 264, "start": 2022.32, "end": 2030.48, "text": "things ideology. But for those who umare environmentalists and have longopposed nuclear will they be sucked in", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 265, "start": 2030.48, "end": 2034.32, "text": "by the solar alternative? But that exact", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 266, "start": 2034.32, "end": 2042.799, "text": "so data centers have to run 247. So theycannot actually run on just renewables.That is why the companies keep trying to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 267, "start": 2042.799, "end": 2051.599, "text": "evoke nuclear as the solve all but solardoes not actually work when we do nothave sufficient enough energy storage", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 268, "start": 2051.599, "end": 2058.879, "text": "solutions for that 24/7 operation. We'llreturn to our conversation in a minutewith Karen How, author of the new book", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 269, "start": 2058.879, "end": 2072.8, "text": "Empire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares inSam Alman's Open AI. Stay with us.This is Democracy Now! Democracynow.org.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 270, "start": 2072.8, "end": 2082.48, "text": "I'm Amy Goodman. In this holidayspecial, we're speaking with thejournalist Karen How, author of the newbook Empire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 271, "start": 2082.48, "end": 2093.2, "text": "in Sam Alman's Open AI. She came intour studio in May. She lives in HongKong. I asked her to talk about what'shappening in China around artificial", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 272, "start": 2093.2, "end": 2102.079, "text": "intelligence.>> China and the US are the largest hubsfor AI research. They are the largestconcentration of AI research talent", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 273, "start": 2102.079, "end": 2109.44, "text": "globally. Um, China other than SiliconValley, China really is the only otherival in terms of talent density and the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 274, "start": 2109.44, "end": 2114.8, "text": "amount of capital investment and theamount of infrastructure that is goinginto AI development. In the last few", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 275, "start": 2114.8, "end": 2125.44, "text": "years, what we have seen is the USgovernment has been aggressively tryingto stay number one and one of themechanisms that they have used is export", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 276, "start": 2125.44, "end": 2134.48, "text": "controls. A key input into these AImodels is the computationalinfrastructure and the computer chipsfor installing into the data centers for", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 277, "start": 2134.48, "end": 2143.04, "text": "training these models. And thesecomputer chips are the in order todevelop the AI models. Companies areusing the most bleeding edge computer", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 278, "start": 2143.04, "end": 2148.64, "text": "chip technology. It's like the every twoyears a new chip comes out and theyimmediately start using that to train", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 279, "start": 2148.64, "end": 2155.76, "text": "the next generation of AI models. Thosecomputer chips are designed by Americancompanies, the most prominent one being", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 280, "start": 2155.76, "end": 2163.92, "text": "Nvidia in California. And so the USgovernment has been trying to use exportcontrols to prevent Chinese companies", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 281, "start": 2163.92, "end": 2172.32, "text": "from getting access to the most cuttingedge computer chips. That has all beenunder the recommendation of Silicon", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 282, "start": 2172.32, "end": 2183.119, "text": "Valley saying this is the way to preventChina from being number one. and likeput export controls on them and don't", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 283, "start": 2183.119, "end": 2192.8, "text": "regulate us at all so we can stay numberone and they will fall behind. What hashappened insteadis because there is a strong base of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 284, "start": 2192.8, "end": 2201.92, "text": "talent of AI research talent in Chinaunder the constraints of fewercomputational resources, Chinesecompanies have actually been able to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 285, "start": 2201.92, "end": 2210.079, "text": "innovate and develop the same level ofAI model capabilities as Americancompanies with two orders of magnitude", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 286, "start": 2210.079, "end": 2220.24, "text": "less computational resources, lessenergy, less data. So, I'm talkingspecifically about um the Chinesecompany Highfire, which developed this", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 287, "start": 2220.24, "end": 2229.04, "text": "model called Deep Seek earlier this yearthat briefly tanked the global economybecause the company said that their", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 288, "start": 2229.04, "end": 2241.68, "text": "um training this one AI model costaround $6 million when OpenAI wastraining models that cost hundreds ofmillions if not over tens of billions of", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 289, "start": 2241.68, "end": 2250.64, "text": "dollars. And that delta demonstrated topeople that this what Silicon Valley hastried to convince everyone for the last", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 290, "start": 2250.64, "end": 2259.04, "text": "few years that this is the only path togetting more AI capabilities is totallyfalse and actually the techniques that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 291, "start": 2259.04, "end": 2266.56, "text": "chi the Chinese company was using wereones that existed in the literature andjust had to be assembled. They used a", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 292, "start": 2266.56, "end": 2272.8, "text": "lot of engineering sophistication to dothat, but they weren't actually usingfundamentally new techniques. They were", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 293, "start": 2272.8, "end": 2278.72, "text": "ones that actually already existed.>> So explain it further because I think alot of people just can't get their minds", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 294, "start": 2278.72, "end": 2282.55, "text": "around this. How do you do thistraining?", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 295, "start": 2282.56, "end": 2291.28, "text": ">> So there's software called neuralnetworks which is essentially a massivestatistical engine. is doing lots and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 296, "start": 2291.28, "end": 2299.599, "text": "lots of sophisticated statisticalcomputation to try and ascertain whatkinds of patterns exist in data sets. So", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 297, "start": 2299.599, "end": 2306.0, "text": "typically in in the past before we goto large language models it would bedoing something like um looking at MRI", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 298, "start": 2306.0, "end": 2314.56, "text": "scans and checking the patterns of whatdoes cancer look like in an MRIscan. Um now with GBT what it's looking", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 299, "start": 2314.56, "end": 2318.32, "text": "at is what are the patterns of theEnglish language? what is the syntax,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 300, "start": 2318.32, "end": 2328.64, "text": "the structure, figures of speech thatare typically used and then it usesthose patterns to construct newsentences. That's how generative AI", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 301, "start": 2328.64, "end": 2335.28, "text": "works. And the reason why it's socomputationally expensive is becauseit's crunching the numbers for those", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 302, "start": 2335.28, "end": 2343.68, "text": "patterns. And the more data you feed in,the more it has to crunch. And so it weused to train these AI models on you", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 303, "start": 2343.68, "end": 2352.64, "text": "know a powerful laptop like maybe onecomputer chip maybe the richest labsacademic labs like MIT they would be uh", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 304, "start": 2352.64, "end": 2360.24, "text": "training on a couple or a dozen computerchips and companies like Google theywould be training maybe on a couple", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 305, "start": 2360.24, "end": 2367.68, "text": "hundred computer chips. We are nowtalking about hundreds of thousands ofcomputer chips training a single model.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 306, "start": 2367.68, "end": 2377.119, "text": "Um and that is the you know that is whatopen AI says is necessary to build thesetechnologies and that is what deepseek", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 307, "start": 2377.119, "end": 2385.119, "text": "proved wrong. So, let me ask yousomething, Karen. uh the latest news umas you're traveling in the United States", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 308, "start": 2385.119, "end": 2395.76, "text": "before you go back to Hong Kong uh ofTrump's attack on academia, how thisfits in. Um how could Trump's attack on", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 309, "start": 2395.76, "end": 2404.24, "text": "international students specificallytargeting the what more than 250,000 aquarter of a million Chinese students", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 310, "start": 2404.24, "end": 2411.839, "text": "and revoking their visas impact thefuture of the AI industry. But not justChinese students because what's going on", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 311, "start": 2411.839, "end": 2421.28, "text": "here now is terrifying students aroundthe world and because labs are shuttingdown in all kinds of ways here uh US", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 312, "start": 2421.28, "end": 2429.92, "text": "students as well uh deciding to goabroad.This is just the latest action that theUS government has taken over the last", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 313, "start": 2429.92, "end": 2442.48, "text": "few years to really alienate a keytalent pool for US innovation.Originally, there were more Chineseresearchers working in the US", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 314, "start": 2442.48, "end": 2452.16, "text": "contributing to US AI than there were inChina because [snorts] just a few yearsago, Chinese researchers aspired to work", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 315, "start": 2452.16, "end": 2462.96, "text": "for American companies. They wanted tomove to the US. They wanted tocontribute to the US economy. Theydidn't want to go back to their home", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 316, "start": 2462.96, "end": 2471.76, "text": "country. But because of what was calledthe China Initiative, which was the afirst Trump era initiative to try and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 317, "start": 2471.76, "end": 2478.96, "text": "criminalize Chinese academics orethnically Chinese academics, some ofwhom were actually Americans um based on", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 318, "start": 2478.96, "end": 2486.48, "text": "just paperwork errors. They would accusethem of being spies. That was one of thefirst actions. Then of course the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 319, "start": 2486.48, "end": 2494.72, "text": "pandemic happened and the USChina tradescalations started amplifyinganti-Chinese rhetoric. All of these led", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 320, "start": 2494.72, "end": 2504.8, "text": "and now with the potential ban oninternational students. All of thesehave led more and more Chineseresearchers to just opt for staying at", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 321, "start": 2504.8, "end": 2514.319, "text": "home and contributing to the Chinese AIecosystem. And this was a prerequisiteto High-fly pulling off Deepseek. If", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 322, "start": 2514.319, "end": 2523.28, "text": "there had not been that concentrationand buildup of AI talent in China, theyprobably would have had a much harder", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 323, "start": 2523.28, "end": 2531.04, "text": "time innovating around circumventingthese export controls that the USgovernment was imposing on them. But", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 324, "start": 2531.04, "end": 2541.68, "text": "because they now have a highconcentration of top talent, some of thetop talent globally,when those restrictions were imposed,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 325, "start": 2541.68, "end": 2549.839, "text": "they were able to innovate around them.So Deepseek is literally a product ofthis continuation of that alienation and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 326, "start": 2549.839, "end": 2558.16, "text": "with the US continuing to take thistance, it is just going to get worse.And as you mentioned, it's not justChinese researchers. I literally just", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 327, "start": 2558.16, "end": 2565.68, "text": "alked to a friend in academia that saidshe's considering going to Europe nowbecause she just cannot survive without", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 328, "start": 2565.68, "end": 2572.4, "text": "hat public funding. And Europe Europeancountries are seeing a criticalopportunity offering milliondoll", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 329, "start": 2572.4, "end": 2579.599, "text": "packages. Come here, we'll give you alab. We'll give you millions of dollarsof funding. I mean this is the fastest", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 330, "start": 2579.599, "end": 2589.839, "text": "way to brain drain this country.>> I mean what many are saying US's braindrain is their brain gain. Yes.>> And this also reminds us of history. You", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 331, "start": 2589.839, "end": 2600.56, "text": "have the Chinese rocket scientist ChenShuen who in the 1950s was inexplicablyheld under house arrest for years and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 332, "start": 2600.56, "end": 2608.8, "text": "then Eisenhower has him deported toChina. He becomes the father of rocketscience and uh China's entry into space.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 333, "start": 2608.8, "end": 2614.4, "text": "And he said he would never again stepfoot into the United States even thoughoriginally that was the only place he", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 334, "start": 2614.4, "end": 2621.92, "text": "wanted to live.>> Yes. And there was a I believe agovernment official, a US governmentofficial who said that was the dumbest", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 335, "start": 2621.92, "end": 2633.04, "text": "mistake the US ever made.>> Um you we talk about the brain drain andthe brain gain. Okay. Again, uh somemore rhyming, the doomers and the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 336, "start": 2633.04, "end": 2644.56, "text": "boomers. Um, I want to talk about whatan AI apocalypse looks like, meaning howit brings us to apocalypse, but also um", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 337, "start": 2644.56, "end": 2653.349, "text": "how uh people say it could lead us to autopia. What are the two trackstrajectories?", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 338, "start": 2653.359, "end": 2659.68, "text": ">> It's a great question and I ask boomersand doomers this all the time. Can youarticulate to me exactly how we get", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 339, "start": 2659.68, "end": 2661.2, "text": "here? And the issue is that they", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 340, "start": 2661.2, "end": 2670.079, "text": "cannot. And this is why I call it quasireligious. It really is based on belief.I mean, I was talking with oneresearcher who identified as a boomer.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 341, "start": 2670.079, "end": 2679.359, "text": "And I said, you know, he his his eyeswere wide and he he really lit upsaying, you know, once we get to AGI,game over. Everything becomes perfect.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 342, "start": 2679.359, "end": 2689.76, "text": "And I asked him, I was like, can youexplain to me how does AGI feed peoplethat haven't don't have food on thetable right now? And he was like, \"Oh,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 343, "start": 2689.76, "end": 2699.68, "text": "you're talking about like the floorand how to elevate their qualityof life.\" And I was like, \"Yes, becausethey are also part of all of humanity.\"", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 344, "start": 2699.68, "end": 2704.64, "text": "And he was like, \"I'm not really surehow that would happen, but I think itcould it could help the middle class get", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 345, "start": 2704.64, "end": 2709.92, "text": "more economic opportunity.\" And I waslike, \"Okay, but how does that happen aswell?\" And he was like, \"Well, once", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 346, "start": 2709.92, "end": 2715.839, "text": "these come once we have AGI and it canjust create trillions of dollars ofeconomic value, we can just give them", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 347, "start": 2715.839, "end": 2719.119, "text": "cash payouts.\" And I was like, who'sgiving them cash payouts? What", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 348, "start": 2719.119, "end": 2720.56, "text": "institutions are giving them? You know,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 349, "start": 2720.56, "end": 2728.319, "text": "like it it doesn't when you actuallytest their logic, it doesn't reallyhold. And with the doomers, I mean, it's", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 350, "start": 2728.319, "end": 2737.92, "text": "the same thing. like their belief isultimatelywhat I realized when reporting on thebook is they believe AGI is possible", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 351, "start": 2737.92, "end": 2746.48, "text": "because of their belief of how the humanbrain works. They believe humanintelligence is inherently fullycomputational. So if you have enough", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 352, "start": 2746.48, "end": 2753.04, "text": "data and you have enough computationalresources, you will inevitably be ableto recreate human intelligence. It's", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 353, "start": 2753.04, "end": 2761.2, "text": "just a matter of time. And to them, thereason why there would that would leadto an apocalyptic scenario is humans, we", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 354, "start": 2761.2, "end": 2767.92, "text": "learn and improve our intelligencethrough communication. And communicationis inefficient. We miscommunicate all", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 355, "start": 2767.92, "end": 2779.28, "text": "the time. And so for AI intelligences,they would be able to rapidly getsmarter and smarter and smarter byhaving perfect communication with one", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 356, "start": 2779.28, "end": 2786.8, "text": "another as digital intelligences. And somany of these people who selfidentify asdoomers say there has never been in the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 357, "start": 2786.8, "end": 2796.64, "text": "history of the the universe a speciesthat was superior to another species a aspecies that was able to rule over um a", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 358, "start": 2796.64, "end": 2805.28, "text": "more superior species. So they thinkthat ultimately AI will evolve into ahigher species and then start ruling us", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 359, "start": 2805.28, "end": 2814.319, "text": "and then maybe decide to get rid of usaltogether. I'm wondering if you cantalk about any model of a country, not a", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 360, "start": 2814.319, "end": 2825.599, "text": "company,>> that is pioneering a way ofdemocratically controlled artificialintelligence.>> I don't think it's actively happening", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 361, "start": 2825.599, "end": 2835.599, "text": "right now.The EU has had the EU AI act, which istheir major piece of legislation tryingto develop a riskbased, rightsbased", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 362, "start": 2835.599, "end": 2847.76, "text": "framework for governing AI umdeployment.Buto me, one of the keys of democratic AIgovernance is also democratically", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 363, "start": 2847.76, "end": 2858.48, "text": "developing AI. And I don't think anycountry is really doing that. And what Imean by that is there are AI has asupply chain. It needs data. It needs", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 364, "start": 2858.48, "end": 2865.599, "text": "land. It needs energy. It needs water.And it also needs spaces in which thesecompanies need access to to then deploy", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 365, "start": 2865.599, "end": 2872.24, "text": "their technology. Schools, hospitals,government agencies. Silicon Valley hasdone a really good job over the last", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 366, "start": 2872.24, "end": 2879.599, "text": "decade of making people feel that theircollectively owned resources are SiliconValleys. You know, I have I talk with", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 367, "start": 2879.599, "end": 2885.92, "text": "friends all the time who say, \"We don'thave data privacy anymore.\" So, like,what's more what's what is more data to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 368, "start": 2885.92, "end": 2887.359, "text": "these companies? Like, I'm fine just", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 369, "start": 2887.359, "end": 2896.56, "text": "giving them all of my data. But thatdata is yours. You know, thatintellectual property is the writers andartists intellectual property. That land", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 370, "start": 2896.56, "end": 2904.48, "text": "is a community's land. Those schools arethe students and teachers schools. Thehospitals are the doctors and nurses and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 371, "start": 2904.48, "end": 2912.64, "text": "patients hospitals. These are all sitesof democratic contestation in thedeployment in the development and the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 372, "start": 2912.64, "end": 2918.72, "text": "deployment of AI. And just like thoseChilean water activists that we talkedabout who aggressively understood that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 373, "start": 2918.72, "end": 2927.68, "text": "fresh water was theirs and theywere not willing to give it up unlessthey got some kind of mutuallybeneficial agreement for it. We need to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 374, "start": 2927.68, "end": 2940.559, "text": "have that spirit in protectingour data, our land, our water, and ourschools so that companies inevitablywill have to adjust their approach", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 375, "start": 2940.559, "end": 2947.2, "text": "because they will no longer get accessto the resources they need or the spacesthat they need to deploy in. In 2022,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 376, "start": 2947.2, "end": 2954.079, "text": "Karen, you wrote a piece for MITechnology Review headlined a new visionof artificial intelligence for the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 377, "start": 2954.079, "end": 2962.16, "text": "people. In a remote rural town in NewZealand, an indigenous couple ischallenging what AI could be and who it", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 378, "start": 2962.16, "end": 2964.64, "text": "should serve. Who are they? This was a", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 379, "start": 2964.64, "end": 2976.4, "text": "wonderful story that I did where thecouple um they run to media. It's anonprofit MAI radio station in NewZealand. And the Maui people have", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 380, "start": 2976.4, "end": 2983.44, "text": "suffered a lot of the same um challengesas many indigenous peoples around theworld. The history of colonization led", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 381, "start": 2983.44, "end": 2989.2, "text": "them to rapidly lose their language andthere are very few Mauy speakers in theworld anymore. And so in the last few", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 382, "start": 2989.2, "end": 2994.96, "text": "years there's been an attempt to revivethe language and the New Zealandgovernment has tried to repent by by", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 383, "start": 2994.96, "end": 3002.079, "text": "trying to encourage that the revival ofthat language. But this nonprofit radiostation, they had all this wonderful", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 384, "start": 3002.079, "end": 3010.079, "text": "archival material, archival audio oftheir ancestors speaking the Mailanguage that they wanted to provide to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 385, "start": 3010.079, "end": 3016.319, "text": "Maui speakers, ma Mai learners aroundthe world as an educational resource.The problem is in order to do that they", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 386, "start": 3016.319, "end": 3022.8, "text": "needed to transcribe the audio so thatMai learners could actually listen, seewhat was being said, click on the words,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 387, "start": 3022.8, "end": 3029.76, "text": "understand the translation and actuallyturn it into an active learning tool.But there were so few Maui speakers that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 388, "start": 3029.76, "end": 3039.2, "text": "can speak at that advanced level thathey realized they had to turn to AI.And this is a key part of my book'sargument is I'm not critiquing all AI", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 389, "start": 3039.2, "end": 3044.8, "text": "development. I'm specifically critiquingthe scale at all cost approach thatSilicon Valley has taken. But there are", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 390, "start": 3044.8, "end": 3050.88, "text": "many different kinds of beneficial AImodels, including what they ended updoing. So they took a fundamentally", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 391, "start": 3050.88, "end": 3057.76, "text": "different approach. First and foremost,they asked their community, do we wanthis AI tool? Once the community said", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 392, "start": 3057.76, "end": 3066.48, "text": "yes, then they moved to the next step ofasking people to fully consent todonating data for the training of this", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 393, "start": 3066.48, "end": 3072.559, "text": "tool. They explained to the communitywhat this data was for, how it would beused, how they would then guard that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 394, "start": 3072.559, "end": 3080.64, "text": "data and make sure that it wasn't usedfor other purposes.They collected around a couple hundredhours of audio data in just a few days", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 395, "start": 3080.64, "end": 3087.119, "text": "because the community rallied supportaround this project and only a couplehundred hours was enough to create a", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 396, "start": 3087.119, "end": 3093.04, "text": "performant speech recognition modelwhich is crazy when you think about thescales of data that these Silicon Valley", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 397, "start": 3093.04, "end": 3099.2, "text": "companies require. And that is onceagain a lesson that can be learned isactually there's plenty of research that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 398, "start": 3099.2, "end": 3106.8, "text": "shows when you have highly curated smalldata sets, you can actually create verypowerful AI models and then once they", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 399, "start": 3106.8, "end": 3115.04, "text": "had that tool, they were able to doexactly what they wanted to open sourceand resour uh open source thiseducational resource to their community.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 400, "start": 3115.04, "end": 3128.8, "text": "And so my vision for AI development inthe future is to have more smalltaskspecific AI models that are notrained on vast polluted data sets but", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 401, "start": 3128.8, "end": 3138.24, "text": "small curated data sets and thereforeonly need small amounts of computationalpower and can be deployed in challenges", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 402, "start": 3138.24, "end": 3147.92, "text": "that we actually need to tackle forhumanity.mitigating climate change by integratingmore renewable energy into the grid,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 403, "start": 3147.92, "end": 3157.599, "text": "improving health care, by doing moredrug discovery.>> So, as we finally do wrap up, what youwere most shocked by, you've been doing", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 404, "start": 3157.599, "end": 3169.599, "text": "uh this journalism, this research foryears, what you were most shocked by inwriting Empire of AI.I originally thought that I was going to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 405, "start": 3169.599, "end": 3176.8, "text": "write a book focused on vertical harmsof the AI supply chain. Here's how laborexploitation happens in the AI industry.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 406, "start": 3176.8, "end": 3184.559, "text": "Here's how the environmental harms arearising out of the AI industry. And athe end of my reporting, I realized that", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 407, "start": 3184.559, "end": 3190.319, "text": "here is a horizontal harm that'shappening here. Every single communitythat I spoke to, whether it was artists", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 408, "start": 3190.319, "end": 3196.8, "text": "having their intellectual property takenor Chilean water water activists havingtheir fresh water taken, they all said", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 409, "start": 3196.8, "end": 3204.64, "text": "that when they encountered the empire,they initially felt exactly the sameway. A complete loss of agency to", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 410, "start": 3204.64, "end": 3213.839, "text": "self-determine their future. And that iswhen I realized the horizontal harm hereis AI is threatening democracy. If the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 411, "start": 3213.839, "end": 3226.24, "text": "majority of the world is going to feelthis loss of agency overself-determining their future, democracycannot survive and again specifically", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 412, "start": 3226.24, "end": 3235.599, "text": "Silicon Valley's approach scale at allcosts AI development.>> But you also chronicle the resistance.You talk about how the Chilean water", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 413, "start": 3235.599, "end": 3245.68, "text": "actors felt at first, how the artistsfeel at first. So talk about thestrategies that these people havemployed and if they've been effective.", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 414, "start": 3245.68, "end": 3252.4, "text": ">> So the amazing thing is that there hasince been so much push back. Theartists have then said wait a minute we", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 415, "start": 3252.4, "end": 3258.64, "text": "can sue these companies. The Chileanwater activists said wait a minute wecan fight back and protect these water", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 416, "start": 3258.64, "end": 3265.2, "text": "esources. The Kenyan workers that Ispoke to who are contracted by OpenAIthey said we can unionize and escalate", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 417, "start": 3265.2, "end": 3275.68, "text": "our story to international mediattention. And so even in these evenwhen I thought that these communitiesyou could argue are the most vulnerable", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 418, "start": 3275.68, "end": 3285.04, "text": "in the world have the least amount ofagency, they were the ones thatremembered that they do have agency andthat they can seize that agency and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 419, "start": 3285.04, "end": 3294.96, "text": "fight back. And I think it it was it wasremarkably heartening to encounter thosepeople to remind me that actually the", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 420, "start": 3294.96, "end": 3302.96, "text": "first step to reclaiming democracy isremembering that no one can take youragency away.>> Karen How, author of the new book Empire", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 421, "start": 3302.96, "end": 3311.68, "text": "of AI: Dreams and Nightmares and SamAlman's Open AI. Karen How is a formereporter at the Wall Street Journal and", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 422, "start": 3311.68, "end": 3319.76, "text": "MIT Technology Review. And that does itfor this special broadcast. [music]Democracy Now is produced with Mike", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 423, "start": 3319.76, "end": 3325.04, "text": "Burke, Renee Fel, Dina Guster, MessiahRhodess, Nurmine Shake, Maria Terasena,Nicole Salazar, [music] Sarin Nasser,", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 424, "start": 3325.04, "end": 3331.599, "text": "Trina Nadura, Sam Alov, T Maria Joe,John Hamilton, Robbie [music] Karen,Honey Massud, and Safwet Naz. Our", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 425, "start": 3331.599, "end": 3337.28, "text": "executive directors, Julie Crosby.Special thanks to Becca Stelli, JohnRandolph, Paul Powell, [music] Mike", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 426, "start": 3337.28, "end": 3344.16, "text": "DeFippo, Miguel Nggera, Hugh Grant, CarlMarxer, Dennis Moahan, David Prud,Dennis McCormack, Matt Elely, Anna", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 427, "start": 3344.16, "end": 3352.799, "text": "Osbeck, Emily Anderson, Dante Toriieri,Buffy [music] St. Marie Hernandez withJuan Gonzalez. I'm Amy Goodman. Happy", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 428, "start": 3352.799, "end": 3361.92, "text": "New Year.Thanks for watching Democracy Now onYouTube. Subscribe to the channel andturn on notifications to make sure you", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 429, "start": 3361.92, "end": 3368.559, "text": "never miss a video. And for more of ouraudience supported journalism, go todemocracynow.org or where you can", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" }, { "id": 430, "start": 3368.559, "end": 3375.0, "text": "download our news app, sign up for ournewsletter, subscribe to the dailypodcast, and so much", "source": "video_source_subtitle", "authority": "video_source_subtitle" } ], "transcript_selection": { "schema": "videonote.transcript_selection.v1", "status": "SELECTED", "requested_language": "en", "duration": 3375.0, "reference_path": "/Users/sagawa/AI_WORK/video_notes/url/20260907_082809__Empire_of_AI_Karen_Hao_on_How_AI_Is_Threatening_Democracy_Creating_a_New_Colonia/reference_subtitle.vtt", "reference_kind": "automatic_original", "reference_language": "en-orig", "selected_source": "video_source_subtitle", "source_caption_kind": "automatic_original", "source_caption_processing": "rolling_dedup_and_sentence_merge", "youtube_overlap_clamps": [], "general_high_confidence_repairs": [], "decision_reason": "complete_source_subtitle_fast_path_no_whisper", "whisper_rejected": false, "source_profile": { "segment_count": 431, "duration_coverage": 0.999049 } } }