{
  "text": "马斯克跟经济学人的总编辑吵了一架\n吵了90分钟\n他们到底在吵什么\n两个人甩出了一大堆的数据\n是真的吗\n如果两边的数据都是真的\n那我们到底应该信谁的呢\n还有一个最要命的问题\n到了AI时代\n我们是不是已经没有了真假\n只剩下信与不信了呢\n大家好\n欢迎收听老饭讲故事的YouTube频道\n咱们今天先不急着说事\n先给大家在脑子里头\n把这个画面支起来\n一间厂房\n不是演播室\n不是会议室\n是特斯拉德州超级工厂的车间\n背后是机械臂和生产线\n马斯克坐在他自己的地盘上\n就在这场采访前几天\n他刚把CNBC约好的一场采访给推了\n这个细节本身已经在说话了\n坐在他对面的是一位60多岁的\n英国女士牛津出身\n一口标准的英式英语\n这个人是赞尼明顿贝多斯\n是经济学人的总编辑\n90分钟\n聊到最后两个人吵得面红耳势\n马斯克还端得住啊\n还在用他那套聪明劲\n一条一条的反驳\n那位女士是真急了\n最后几个回合声音都变了\n而这场价的结尾比采访本身还精彩\n采访播出以后\n马斯克在自己的平台上\n公开管这位总编辑叫西方的叛徒\n这事国内报道了吗\n报了\n但是只报了一句\n说马斯克说了中国AI会领先世界的\n这话呢\n他确实说了\n说的还挺实在的\n中国的AI公司用很少的算力\n就能够做到这个水平\n一旦算力上来了\n可能就是领跑者\n约束条件说到底就是两个电和芯片\n中国卡在芯片上\n中国以外卡在电上\n这句话听着舒服\n所以国内就报了这一段\n行讲完了\n今天要讲的是国内没报的那一部分\n后边那60分钟的吵架\n他讲AI实际上只讲了半个小时\n剩下60分钟都在吵架\n开场咱们先说三组数字\n第一组2亿4千万对125万\n2亿4千万是什么\n是马斯克在X上的关注数\n125万是什么呢\n是经济学人全球付费订户的总数\n这还是他180多年以来最好的成绩\n两个数字之间差192倍\n第二组数呢是零对1400万\n老编辑说你把美国国际开发署砍得那么急\n非洲的孩子会死\n马斯克给出了一个数字零\n而老编辑手里那份柳叶刀研究说的是\n断供到2030年可能造成超过1400万人死亡\n第三组数字\n62775对44447\n马斯克说了\n在欧洲热死的人比在美国被枪打死的人还多\n你们怎么不写篇文章讲讲空调呢\n这个数字我查了\n是真的\n大家听清楚了\n三组数字\n一个假的都没有\n全是真的\n这就是今天这期节目最要命的地方\n两个人从头到尾\n没有一个人说谎\n可是他们谁也没能说服谁\n首先这位老太太是谁呢\n拆架之前咱先得认人啊\n她这份履历\n我必须得念一遍\n因为不念这一段的话\n后边这场架你就听不懂了\n老太太牛津大学圣西尔达学院\n德学政治经济学\n英国培养内阁大臣的那个专业\n然后是哈佛的硕士肯尼迪学者\n毕业第一件事\n是被波兰财政部部长啊\n请去当顾问了\n那正是东欧转轨\n休克疗法打得最凶的年头\n然后进了国际货币基金组织\n当了两年的经济学家\n所以他后边还讲了\n说我是经济学家\n是真的啊\n1994年进了经济学人杂志\n从新兴市场记者一路做到了商业和金融版的主编\n2015年2月2日出任第17任总编辑\n这家1843年创刊的杂志\n172年里头第一位女性总编辑\n到今天他在这家杂志干了32年\n当总编辑当了11年\n这不是一个记者\n这是一整套西方精英筛选机制\n筛选出来的一个人\n一级一级筛选出来\n哪一级都没有跳过\n牛津哈佛MF\n也就是国际货币基金组织\n经济学人四道门\n每一道都得有人点头\n你才能进去\n而对面做的是一个什么样的人呢\n他一道门都没走过\n他的授权不是来自于任何一个部门的筛选\n而是来自于两亿四千万个关注按钮\n一个一个点出来的\n这里还包括老判自己\n好人认完了啊\n下面咱们去回答问题\n这90分钟里头\n他们先后打了五场啊\n我们一场一场的过\n第一场什么叫正常人\n第二场断供有没有死人\n第三场英国会不会内战\n第四场是不是热死人比枪杀的人还多\n第五场两亿四千万人\n关注你啊\n该不该负责任啊\n咱们从第一场开始说\n第一架什么叫正常人呢\n这一架数字最少\n但是呢\n它是全场的地基\n后边四架全都是从这开始的\n老编辑先开的口\n说你支持的不只是民粹右翼\n你支持的是极右翼\n在有些国家\n甚至是非常边缘的党派\n马斯克立刻打断他\n说不\n我支持的是正常人\n你凭什么把人家污蔑成极右翼呢\n老编辑愣了一下\n说你觉得那是正常人吗\n然后马斯克说了这一场最关键的话\n你忘回到十年\n十五年\n这些政策完完全全就是正常的\n接下来他摆了三条\n边境应该是安全的\n城市应该是安全的\n花钱应该是合理的\n这三条哪一条是极右翼\n我要批评你\n也批评整个媒体界\n你们对极右这个词的用法\n是荒唐的虚假的误导的胡说八道\n然后他补了一句\n说这段请一定要留着\n别给我捡了\n经济学人这老太太说\n你放心啊\n我们一点都不捡\n绝对是原汁原汉给放出来的\n大家听见了吗\n他在经济学人总编辑的采访里头\n当正面说这段别捡\n他不是在跟对面这个人说话\n他是在对屏幕外面的两亿四千万人说话\n他在坐下来的一分钟就没打算说服这位老太太\n他打算的是当着他的面来说服屏幕前的你我\n老编辑的反击呢也很巧妙啊\n他没有跟他辩论什么叫急右\n他换了他换了个打法\n他说你支持的那些人里头\n有相当卑鄙的人\n德国选择党里头\n魏德尔本人我见过\n是个相当有想法的人\n可是他那个党里边\n有真正的新纳粹\n你带着两亿四千万粉丝\n去给这么一个党\n做无差别的背书\n你在欧洲的影响力之大\n恐怕连你自己都没有意识到\n马斯克回了一句让人背后发凉的话\n他说我希望我的影响还能更大一点\n这一架的关键在于正常这两个字\n正常不是一个描述词\n它是一把尺子\n而这把尺子是随时在挪动的\n一条街上原来都卖包子\n你也卖包子\n那你就是一个正常的买卖人\n后来铺子一家一家改变了\n变成卖蛋糕的了\n卖蛋糕的开始说\n这条街是做西点的街\n你一动不动的还在原地蒸包子\n你就是个守旧派跟不上时代的人\n你确实一步都没有挪\n可是街发生了变化\n你说我才是正常的呀\n你没有撒谎\n街坊说你不正常\n街坊也没有撒谎\n那个老编辑在争的是什么\n他压根不是在跟你争定义\n他争的是\n你的背书是有代价的\n魏德尔本人没问题\n问题是那个党里边真正的辛纳粹\n你给整个党无差别的做了背书\n那些人就跟你的两亿四千万一起上桌了\n一个谈的是立场\n一个谈的是后果\n从头到尾就不是一个话题\n这不叫辩论\n这就是两列火车在两条不相交的轨道上\n各开各的\n谁也撞不上谁\n老范呢\n从这一架里头推出了一条材料上没写的\n我希望我的影响还能更大一点\n是90分钟里他最坦白的一句话\n老编辑本来想让他不好意思啊\n结果他把影响大\n直接当好事接下来了\n在他那套价值观里\n影响力本身就是正当性\n这个逻辑记住啊\n后边还要用到\n第二架\n第二架断供到底死没死人\n老编辑说了\n我相当支持这次援助体系的改革\n但是你关停的一大批项目的方式\n肯定会造成不必要的死亡\n讲的是马斯克在\n倒置关了很多很多这样的项目\n马斯克回复了一个字\n0\n老编辑就说了\n我有记者在非洲\n抗艾斯病的药一夜之间就断了\n人就会死\n马斯克说全世界几万家NGO\n为什么不接受\n比尔盖茨基金手里有500亿美金\n麦肯齐贝索斯捐了500亿\n他们要是不接\n同样有责任\n而且这笔钱根本就没有停\n只是转到了国务院去了\n老编辑说了全场让我认为最漂亮的一句话\n他说我对这次改革其实相当有同情\n但这个速度和忽然的程度\n几乎必然造成不必要的死亡\n这两件事情可以同时成立\n马斯克说这完全是假的\n好啊那咱们拆一下\n老编辑的底细来自于柳叶刀\n133个国家的数据\n回头认定这些项目\n20年间避免了大约9100万人的死亡\n往后推演断供到2030年\n可能造成超过1400万人死亡\n而马斯克那句钱没停\n咱们也得核对一下\n2025年3月国务卿卢比奥自己宣布\n取消了83%的项目\n5200份合同\n砍掉了8成3\n剩下的不到两成\n这叫没停\n只是换了个部门\n这就好比公司把我出差的报销额度\n砍了八成三\n剩下的换了个部门去审批\n还跟我说你的额度没变\n只是换了个流程\n这个还是有些差别的\n但是别急着觉得老编辑赢了\n大家注意一下\n他那个1400万是怎么来的\n这个市场不存在一张死亡证明\n写着死于美国断供\n断供不直接杀人\n断供是让药停了\n让诊所关了\n本来能够治的病治不了了\n所以你根本没有办法点着名去统计\n说一个两个三个\n没办法的\n研究者只能建一个模型\n假设这笔钱一直给下去\n算出来本来应该能够活多少人\n再减去真实世界的数字\n这套方法是为了让看不见的死亡\n能够进到账本而发明出来的\n他天生带有误差\n所以必须按照区间数来报\n1400万区间是850万到1970万之间取了个中间数\n所以这一架真正分歧根本不是死没死人\n是什么才算数\n马斯克要的数字是数出来的死亡\n到底有多少个死亡证\n他是要这样的一个东西\n你给我名字\n给我死亡证明\n老编辑给的是一个推算出来的死亡\n模型说少活了这么多人\n那就是死了这么多人\n这在朝堂上有个一模一样的对应\n周县遭到了灾难的时候\n往上报死了多少人\n通常是有两个报法\n第一个叫户部的黄色\n一色一色翻\n点名字报\n到底谁死了\n推算是按照年成术推出个数\n两种都能上奏\n都不算骑军\n关键是你要办谁的时候\n用哪一本\n要办地方官就翻黄册\n一条人命一条人命摆在他面前\n要是给自己脸上贴金\n就用推算的数\n因为那是一个区间很宽的\n随你从哪头念的一个数字\n这是老范给这一架的推论\n马斯克在这一架里头\n要的是死亡证明\n可是他下一架攻击欧洲的时候\n用的恰恰是一个推算出来的数字\n而老编辑正好反过来啊\n两个人都没撒谎\n而是两个人换尺子了\n所以两个人都在双边\n只是在需要证明自己论点的时候\n选择对自己有利的那把尺子\n第三架是什么呢\n英国会不会发生内战\n这是全场最火爆的一场\n老编辑说啊\n你说英国内战不可避免\n只是时间问题\n你上一次去英国什么时候了\n马斯克的回答是几年前了呀\n老编辑说\n我一直在那啊\n你说的这个就是胡话\n马斯克回了最伤人的一句话\n说你活在一个与世隔绝的世界里头\n然后老编辑接着讲犯罪数据\n伦敦是一座比美国任何一座城市\n安全的多的城市\n而因为你有那么多粉丝\n那么多美国人真的信了欧洲\n被可怕的穆斯林移民占领了\n每一个街角都有强奸的途径\n马斯克给了他的结论\n如果你有一大群\n而且是快速增长的一群人\n他们的信念跟西方信念是对立的\n到了某个时候一定会有一次清算\n那就叫做内战\n老编辑说了\n那咱们一起去英国转一圈\n马斯克说我去过一百多次\n那最后一次什么时候去的呢\n几年前去的\n这几个回合\n两个人绕回了原点\n一模一样的回答又来了一遍\n这是全场最尴尬的30秒\n马斯克被问住了\n他只能重复\n我去过100多次\n可是去过100多次\n和最近14日几年前是两回事\n那他这个数字站得住脚吗\n伦敦2025年凶杀率\n每10万人是1.1个人\n是2014年以来最低的\n对面华盛顿特区27.5\n这个华盛顿特区真的是比我想象的高啊\n伦敦是1.1啊\n华盛顿是27.5\n25倍啊\n这一项\n它是碾压式的正确了\n但是还有一层没说\n马斯克也不知道的是英国国家统计局同时发两套犯罪数据\n一套是警方记录的\n一套是居民入户调查的\n警方那套是降了的\n居民那套是生了的\n老百姓实际经历的犯罪\n同比上升了10%\n同一个国家的犯罪\n两套账本里头也是相反的\n所以那句所有的数据都不支持你\n本身也是挑过的尺子\n他挑的是警方的那本\n因为那本是降的\n这个世界上没有数据说了什么\n只有你拿哪把尺子去量\n以后谁跟你说数据是客观的\n你就问他一句\n你手里那把尺子是谁给的\n量的是哪一头\n这一下打到中间\n老编辑掏出了一件具体的东西\n一部电影啊\n国内几乎没有报道过\n但是它是整场架里头\n最好的一个标本\n这个电影呢\n叫做公民疫情\n2026年加拿大的动作片\n男主角呢\n是搬到欧洲的前美国陆军军官\n白天是有产业的体面人\n晚上就变成了公民疫情\n专去处理那些法律\n没能处理掉的移民罪犯\n法官把六个强奸犯\n当难以融入社会的受害者给放了\n他就把法官杀了\n然后闯进强奸犯的家里头\n把一家人全部处决\n德国的分级机构\n拒绝给这部片子评级\n理由是宣扬私刑\n在德国没有评级\n就等于是不能进院线了\n主演呢\n叫阿米汉默\n2021年\n因为性侵指控\n事业一夜归零\n这是他这几年里头\n唯一接到的主角\n后来有报道说\n他看完成片以后崩溃了\n说这部片子充满仇恨\n令人作呕\n不演愤怒的否认\n说我给你钱\n给你机会\n让你去拍片子\n你开开心心拍了\n拍完了以后你还被刺\n这也是精英的惯常嘴脸\n6月25号\n这部在德国上不了院线的片子\n被完整的传到了X平台上\n免费放了48个小时\n马斯克本人转发\n还专门提了史翠山效应\n你越是近他\n他传的越广泛\n结果呢\n烂番茄上影评人打分6%\n观众打分94%\n6分对94分这个数字本身就是今天这期节目的缩影\n同一部片子两拨人的分数差了88分\n你说哪一个是假的\n两边都是真的\n至于卖的怎么样啊\n导演自己说了\n截止6月30号\n刘媒体赚了60万美金\n而成本是200万美金\n所以这个片子是亏钱的\n回到桌上啊\n老编辑说了\n我看了啊\n昨天看的\n这不是一部好电影\n他把欧洲化成了一个反乌托邦\n他在美化私刑暴力\n他在美化屠杀一个穆斯林移民家庭\n我认为你把这个东西放在X上\n是不负责任的\n马斯克回的是什么\n我觉得他就是一部电影\n值得一看\n九个字把老编辑那一大段道德指控\n全都给卸掉了\n这跟街面上开录像厅是一个道理\n街坊说你放的这个片子教坏孩子了\n老板说这不就是个片子吗\n爱看看不爱看别看啊\n他一句都没有反驳你\n他也没有说这个是个好片子\n他把这个架从公堂挪到了街面上\n上了公堂要讲王法\n在街面上只能讲个人好恶\n你跟我讲该不该负责\n我再跟你谈这部片子好不好看\n从这个老编辑的角度上说\n其实有一句话他没有说出来\n既然这不是一部好电影\n大家就不应该看\n而马斯克说的是什么\n这是一部电影\n每一个人都应该有权利决定自己要不要看\n你没有权利来替我们做决定\n那么第四架是什么呢\n热死的比枪杀的多啊\n这架最短杀伤力最强\n老编辑说了\n美国的谋杀率高的很多\n很大程度是因为枪太多了\n马斯克说了这90分钟里最漂亮的一句反击\n说那我给你一个有意思的数据\n在欧洲高温热死的人\n比美国因为枪杀死亡的人多\n你们怎么不写篇文章讲讲空调呢\n老编辑的反应特别体面啊\n他说我们也写了几篇讲空调的\n上周封面就是一篇长文\n然后加了一句\n你该读读我们啊\n这个数据我查了\n自然医学的研究\n根据自然医学杂志的研究\n覆盖欧洲32个国家\n2024年夏天与高温相关的死亡是62,775人\n美国疾控中心2024年枪支死亡的总数是44,447人\n在数字上马斯克是赢的\n但是这两个数字一个是数出来的\n一个是算出来的\n没有任何一个人的死亡证明上\n写的是死于天热\n天热会诱发心梗脑梗中暑\n所以科学家只能\n把这几天实际的死亡人数\n减去去年同期\n该死的人数\n那个差额算在高温头上了\n叫做超额死亡法\n跟上一架里头\n1400万的那个是一路获色\n报区间数了\n那么这个62775的区间是多少呢\n是36765到84379之间\n报了一个中间的数字\n大家听清楚了\n区间下界是36765\n而美国枪支死亡的44447人\n这个数字是一张一张死亡证明开出来的\n也就是说取下界的话\n欧洲热死的人数比美国枪杀的人数要少\n这就是跟打游戏看装备说明一样\n上面写的是伤害3.7万到8.4万\n你不能跟别人说\n我这个刀固定砍一下就是62,000\n区间就是区间\n掐掉区间报数值\n就不是数据了\n是话数\n还有一层正好是他自己这句话的答案\n欧洲家庭的空调覆盖率\n大概是20%\n美国大概是90%\n那句你们怎么不写篇空调的文章\n其实给他自己挖了一个坑\n欧洲热死人多\n直接原因本来就是没有空调\n最后一层老范自己算过\n两个人谁都没提\n那44447个枪杀的人里头\n自杀的人数是27593人\n占62%\n他杀是15364人\n占34.6%\n老边境内去\n谋杀率高是因为枪太多\n说的是那34.6%\n两个人谁都没有提这27000人\n这就是我今天想给大家看见的东西\n不是谁在撒谎了\n一个人都没有撒谎\n而是一堆真实的数据\n你从哪头念\n他就替你从哪头说话\n第五架两亿四千万人关注你\n该不该负责任\n前面四架全都是铺垫\n这一架才是直奔主题\n老编辑就问了\n一方面你跟我描述十年后\n那个文明集的变化\n另外一方面\n你又是社交媒体上最糟糕的那种\n部落主义\n粪坑一样的环境里头的长期参与者\n反而这个老太太能讲出这样的话\n肯定是已经急了\n这两个世界观怎么能够放在一起呢\n马斯克说了\n我不觉得矛盾啊\n老编辑就追问\n那你反穆斯林吗\n大家仔细听\n他没有直接说不\n他说的是\n如果有人带着对立的观念来到一个国家\n我反对这个\n然后老编辑就摊牌了啊\n那你明白为什么有些人恨你吗\n马斯克说\n也许有些人恨我\n这大概是真的\n但是我不在乎\n但正如你自己说的\n两亿五千万人关注我\n那我认为喜欢我的人\n比不喜欢我的人多得多\n而且恨你恨媒体的人\n比你意识到的多得多\n你要知道媒体是被鄙视的吗\n对记者的好感度只有15%左右\n那老编辑也回答了\n我知道啊\n在美国是这样的\n马斯克说\n他们恨你远远超过了恨我\n老编辑说\n认识我的人比认识里的人少太多了\n我跟你不在同一个赛场上\n这一架呢\n咱们先把数字核对一下\n记者好感度15%大敌属实\n但是换了口径\n盖洛普2025年的数字是\n美国人对于新闻媒体的信任度跌到了历史最低\n28%\n50年的调查史上第一次跌到了30%以下\n而记者的诚实与道德标准评分\n报纸记者是17%\n电视记者是13%\n这才是他这个15%的出处\n那不是好感度\n那是诚不诚实\n一个人可以不喜欢你\n同时认为你不撒谎\n这个矛盾还是在这里的\n同一个数字里的\n还有一组数特别好玩\n两个人都没说\n老范跟大家稍微补一下\n共和党人对媒体的信任度\n是8%第一次跌到了个倍数\n因为川大统领每次都说\n你们是假新闻对吧\nFake News\n民主党人是51%\n美国要内战可能也离着不远了\n所以所谓的媒体被全民憎恨\n准确的说法是\n你的一半读者恨你\n另外一半依旧相信你\n这是割裂的\n不是崩塌\n马斯克那句他们恨你说的是那一半\n老编辑的那句\n我知道在美国是这样\n指的也是这一半\n两个人都对\n但都只说了一半\n而这一架真正的胜负手\n是老编辑那句\n我跟你不在同一个赛场上\n他说这话的时候是认输了\n可这是全场最要紧的一句大实话\n他那个赛场比的是你说的对不对\n而马斯克的赛场比的是多少人听你的\n这五场价打完了\n现在把它合起来\n看看到底埋着是一个什么样的东西\n先说老编辑那四道门\n每一级都是万里挑一\n把它挑出来的\n这个筛选是非常非常严酷的\n但是他筛到的到底是什么呢\n他筛的不只是粗命\n还有合适不合适\n每一道门后面都站着一整套体系\n体系点头了\n你才能进去\n所以这里有一件最要命的事情\n他在判断的时候\n其实不是他一个人在做判断\n他在考虑的是整个体系希望他怎么判断\n因为他不是服务于自己\n他服务的\n是那个把他一级一级筛选出来的体系\n这不是他说他不诚实\n恰恰相反\n他越诚实\n跟这个体系贴的就越紧密\n因为他的判断力本来\n就是这个体系一层一层交给他的\n下面这一层才是马斯克说的\n你活在与世隔绝的世界里\n真正扎人的地方\n大家一定要听清楚\n在这套体系里头\n他在被挑出来替社会思考\n替社会判断什么是真\n什么是假的时候\n这是他的职务\n也是他的信念\n那底下那些人怎么办呢\n那些没有读过牛津\n没有订阅过经济学人的普通人\n在这套体系的眼睛里头\n到底是什么呢\n是无知民众\n是需要被告知的人\n不是需要被听见的人\n那底层的表达怎么办呢\n底层的表达是由这些精英通过数学统计和分析\n来替他们表达出来的\n你的日子过得好不好\n不用你来说\n抽样调查会说话\n你怕不怕\n不用你来喊\n犯罪律会说话\n哪怕在英国民众中调查的犯罪率上升了\n但是警方给出的犯罪率下降了\n老编辑就选择我要相信警方的\n然后这些精英再决定用哪一份数据\n怎么来辩解这份数据\n所以这套体系里头一个具体的人\n是小数点后面很多位的一个数字\n是可以被四舍五入掉的\n把这一层想透了\n再回想那句\n你活在真空里\n那就完全不是气话了\n他说的是\n你根本不打算听这些人说话\n你只打算替他们说话\n你手里那份犯罪率是这样的\n可是你没有走进那些\n觉得自己不安全的人的家里头去坐一坐\n你不是不诚实\n你是压根就不需要\n这就好比是青天大老爷升堂了\n老爷是爱民如子的\n真的是清正联名的\n没毛病\n可是他判案子靠的是卷宗\n是文书是失业抄上来的数字\n对老爷来说\n那是今天第七件\n老爷没有一点私心\n老爷只是没法把这七件案子里的每一个人\n都当成人来看\n再说这套东西\n怎么往下传\n那一百二十五万个订户是谁呢\n是各个国家的决策层\n投资人企业高管大学教授\n他们看完了以后再往下讲\n讲给董事会讲给学生\n讲给下属\n这125万人不是读者数\n而是节点数\n这就是朝廷的底报\n印量小的可怜\n可他从中书发到各省\n从各省的官再往下传到县\n再传到乡绅\n相识在在茶馆里头讲给百姓听\n音量小不代表影响力小恰恰相反\n他压根就不打算直接给老百姓看\n他是给那些负责告诉老百姓\n该怎么想的人看的\n而这套东西有一个巨大的好处\n出了事\n你找得到人啊\n这个是谁来负责写的这东西\n老编辑写的能够找得到\n再说马斯克他这两亿四千万\n是一个一个点击点出来的\n但这里头是有水分的\n他买下推特平台改名叫X以后\n这个数字暴涨了\n买的时候他只有1亿1千零60万分思\n现在是2亿4千万\n虽然里面他们在对谈的时候经常会讲到2亿5千万\n但实际的数字是2亿4千万\n前面讲2亿5也不是我讲错了\n是他们就这么讲的\n而且X公开推荐算法代码的时候\n有人在里边查到了专门标记\n发帖人是不是马斯克本人的一个标记位\n这算不算违规呢\n老范的判断是算是合法的吧\n440亿美金那是真金白银啊\n这条街是他花钱买下来的\n他把自己的铺子挪在街口的第一家\n还顺手把指路的招牌都指向自己家\n合法呀一点毛病没有\n你要不服气\n你也花钱你去把它买下来呀\n当然现在已经到1.7万亿美金了\n不是那么容易好买的了\n马斯克现在回头跟人说\n大伙是自己走到我这来的\n这句话呢\n也没有那么厚道\n这场价真正的死结拎出来了\n这两个人从头到尾\n其实都在各说各话\n而这两句话都是对的\n老编辑的那句话是\n你没有经过这套筛选\n你没有考过科举\n你没有点过汉里\n你没有任何一道门约束过你\n可是你现在手里头握着\n两亿四千万人的注意力\n比我们所有人加起来都大\n你凭什么可以不负责任\n这个指控是很硬核的\n他这套体系最值钱的东西\n从来不是我更聪明\n而是我这条命拴在这句话上\n我署名了\n我发更正了\n我上法庭\n我丢饭碗\n他愿意接受这几道门的规训\n换来的就是说话的资格\n你不接受规训\n你凭什么白拿这个资格\n而马斯克这句话叫我不在乎\n这三个字不是在耍无赖\n而是一整套世界观\n他的意思是\n你那个资格是你们几十个人内部发的\n跟我没关系\n我的资格是两亿四千万个真人\n一个一个点击点出来的\n你们那套章程我不认\n所以你们那套责任我也不背\n这就是矛盾的全部所在\n一个人说权力必须配责任\n另一个人说\n你那个责任是你那套体系的规矩\n我不在你那套体系里头\n这两句话在各自的逻辑里头都是完全成立的\n而且他们之间没有任何一个可以裁判的第三方\n这就是为什么吵了90分钟\n谁也说不明白谁的一个原因\n不是他们水平不够\n是这个世上现在真的没有一张两边都认的桌子\n他们吵的从来不是移民\n不是欧洲\n不是空调\n他们吵的是这个世界的话筒应该归谁\n一个是任命制\n一个是流量制\n而最有意思的是\n他们互相指责对方活在真空里\n而且两个人都说对了\n老编辑活在几道门的里头\n门外头这些人\n只是他数字表格里的一个小数点\n马斯克活在两亿四千万关注里头\n那是算法给他挑出来的\n划走的人他也看不着\n两个人各自站在一个精心过滤过的世界正中央\n指着对方说你活在泡沫里\nDI时代没有那么多真假\n只有信与不信啊\n现在呢咱们说这期节目最核心的结论\n大家有没有发现一件事情\n这两个人全程没有一个人犯错误\n毕竟是社会精英啊\n他们引用的所有数据都是真的\n没有听错对方的问题\n一次都没有\n伦敦十万分之一点一的犯罪率是真的\n六万两千七百七十五\n欧洲热死人数也是真的\n柳叶刀上数据是真的\n那个百分之十五的好感率也是真的\n他们不需要撒谎\n因为真实的世界足够大\n大到你想要什么样的真话\n都能够在里边找到\n但是他们经常不正面回答对方的问题\n所以90分钟下来\n两个人都认为自己赢了\n而且两个人赢都有数据支撑的\n这就是标题里头说的那句话\n不同的时代的叙事在碰撞\n不是一个人诚实\n一个人不诚实\n是两套完全不同的举证规矩\n在同一张桌子上争谁才算数\n咱们现在在这个时代里头\n每个人都可以拿到海量的数据\n而且在AI的帮助下\n你拿到的这些数据大概率是真的\n但是同样一份真的数据\n会把不同的人引向完全不同的结论\n同一个44447\n马斯克用他来证明美国的枪不是问题\n老编辑用他来证明美国的枪就是个问题\n同一部公民意境的电影\n一边是煽动仇恨\n一边是言论自由\n以前都说有数据\n有事实有真相\n不在这上\n在于我们到底想要相信什么\n我们可能只想相信\n自己想相信的东西\n我们都是先设限后画靶子\n很多人都说老范\n你怎么这么不客观\n对老范都是主观的\n即使我引用了这么多数据\n我依然是主观的\n因为现在还有一个\n讨好型人格的AI在帮我\n我先得出结论\n然后让AI去根据我的结论找数据的时候\n他干的很好\n结果就是未来不会有那么多真假了\n只剩下信与不信\n每个人选好了自己要相信什么\n然后带着这个选择去找数据\nAI帮他把数据凑齐\n把状子写好\n然后所有人都站在真实的数据上\n得出完全对立的结论\n而且每一个人都可以拿出证据来\n都是真的\n那是不是说经济学人这种东西就没用了呢\n恰恰相反\n老范认为他比以前更重要了\n只是角色变了\n大家注意一个非常讽刺的事实\nX上面有一个社区笔记\n是马斯克用来替代编辑的纠错机制\n可他引用的信源\n高度依赖专业事实核查机构\n维基百科新闻媒体\n他说不需要编辑\n不需要记者\n可是他的替代品\n引用的恰恰是编辑们生产出来的东西\n所以老范的判断是\n马斯克这样的传播方式\n未来大概率会成为主流\n这个趋势是挡不住的\n那我自己怎么办呢\n说一条给大家参考\n我看到任何一个数字\n第一个反应不是\n这是真的是假的\n而是这个数字出来\n是怎么算出来的\n是数出来的死亡证明模型\n怎么推演的超额死亡\n到底是怎么来的\n只要是算出来的\n那我一定要找出它的区间\n而且我还要知道这是谁算的\n它有什么样的利益诉求\n它为什么会算出这样的一个数出来\n我会以这样的方式来看待所有的数据\n今天这期节目\n不是要去讨论欧洲会不会内战\n不是要去讨论欧洲\n是不是因为比美国更安全\n也不是讨论欧洲是不是热死了很多人\n你信哪边都能够自圆其说\n我们今天真正要讲的是一件大的多的事情\n在一个所有数据都是真的\n所有人都能拿到数据\n还配了一个专门替你找证据的AI的时代\n我们到底应该\n这场价的结尾已经把答案的难度写在脸上了\n采访快结束的时候老编辑说了\n如果你说的只是欧洲应该有安全的边界\n那我完全同意你\n马斯克说他支持移民\n只要对方能够成为产出的成员\n诚实\n不虐待当地人\n老编辑说\n我这几条我都全部同意\n大家想想这是一个什么样的场面\n吵了一个半小时\n互相说对方活在与世隔绝的世界里\n你完全是编的\n结果在具体政策上\n两个人发现基本是一致的\n吵到最后发现没有什么可吵的\n这才是最吓人的地方\n这说明他们从来就不是在吵事情\n他们在吵的是谁有资格说这件事情\n那个收尾采访播出以后\n马斯克在自己的平台上对着两亿四千万人\n管这位吵了90分钟的老太太\n叫做西方的叛徒\n大家注意\n他没有再举任何数据\n没有再去进行辩证\n他只是说出了自己的态度\n我认为他是个叛徒\n马斯克认为他虽然花钱买下了X平台\n虽然他有2亿4千万关注者\n但是他也拥有言论自由\n他有自由有权利在平台上说出他的观点\n大家注意这是观点不是事实\n前面大家都在讲事实摆道理\n再去摆这些数据在干嘛\n告诉大家说我这个是有事实依据的\n但是在X平台上我不需要事实\n我们只需要观点\n那他为什么要下了桌子以后再补这么一刀呢\n因为在他那个赛场上\n这才是最后一个回合\n桌上的90分钟是老编辑的规矩\n摆数据讲逻辑\n最后握手言和\n可回到自己的平台上\n规矩就换成马斯克的了\n六个字\n两亿四千万人看见了\n没有庚正兰\n没有事实核查团队\n这一刀不是一句气话\n它是一次示范\n示范这两套规则的差别到底在什么地方\n那我该信谁\n老范的答案是这个问题问错了\n以后不会再有该信谁这个问题了\n只会有我选择信谁\n而这个选择是你自己做的\n不是数据替你做的\n当然数据会影响你\n数据从今往后\n只会越来越多\n越来越真\n越来越唾手可得\n可是他一条都不能替你做决定\n你要先射箭后画靶子\n只会在你做完决定之后\n跑出来给你鼓掌\n这就是今天故事要讲的内容\n感谢大家收听\n请帮忙点赞\n点小铃铛\n参加discord讨论群\n也欢迎有兴趣有能力的朋友\n加入我们的付费频道\n再见",
  "language": null,
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  "segments": [
    {
      "start": 0.0,
      "end": 2.54,
      "text": "马斯克跟经济学人的总编辑吵了一架",
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      "text": "吵了90分钟",
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      "text": "他们到底在吵什么",
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      "text": "两个人甩出了一大堆的数据",
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      "text": "是真的吗",
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      "text": "如果两边的数据都是真的",
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      "start": 9.62,
      "end": 11.56,
      "text": "那我们到底应该信谁的呢",
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      "start": 11.56,
      "end": 13.94,
      "text": "还有一个最要命的问题",
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      "start": 13.94,
      "end": 15.4,
      "text": "到了AI时代",
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      "text": "我们是不是已经没有了真假",
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      "start": 17.76,
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      "text": "只剩下信与不信了呢",
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    {
      "start": 19.96,
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      "text": "大家好",
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      "start": 20.68,
      "end": 22.68,
      "text": "欢迎收听老饭讲故事的YouTube频道",
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    {
      "start": 22.68,
      "end": 24.94,
      "text": "咱们今天先不急着说事",
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      "start": 24.94,
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      "text": "先给大家在脑子里头",
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    {
      "start": 26.56,
      "end": 28.38,
      "text": "把这个画面支起来",
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    {
      "start": 28.38,
      "end": 29.86,
      "text": "一间厂房",
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      "start": 70.16,
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      "text": "老编辑说你把美国国际开发署砍得那么急",
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      "text": "可是街发生了变化",
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      "text": "那个老编辑在争的是什么",
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      "start": 531.28,
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      "text": "你的背书是有代价的",
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      "start": 537.56,
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    {
      "start": 544.16,
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      "text": "那些人就跟你的两亿四千万一起上桌了",
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      "start": 555.6,
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      "text": "这就是两列火车在两条不相交的轨道上",
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      "start": 560.58,
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    {
      "start": 562.42,
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      "text": "老范呢",
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    {
      "start": 563.36,
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      "text": "从这一架里头推出了一条材料上没写的",
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      "start": 566.82,
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      "text": "我希望我的影响还能更大一点",
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      "start": 570.28,
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      "text": "是90分钟里他最坦白的一句话",
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      "text": "老编辑本来想让他不好意思啊",
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      "text": "在他那套价值观里",
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      "start": 587.72,
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      "text": "这个逻辑记住啊",
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      "text": "后边还要用到",
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      "text": "第二架",
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      "text": "第二架断供到底死没死人",
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      "text": "我相当支持这次援助体系的改革",
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      "text": "但是你关停的一大批项目的方式",
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    {
      "start": 603.08,
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      "text": "肯定会造成不必要的死亡",
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      "start": 605.74,
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      "text": "讲的是马斯克在",
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      "start": 607.96,
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      "text": "倒置关了很多很多这样的项目",
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      "start": 610.98,
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      "text": "马斯克回复了一个字",
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      "start": 613.0,
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      "text": "0",
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      "text": "老编辑就说了",
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      "start": 615.94,
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      "text": "我有记者在非洲",
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    {
      "start": 617.64,
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      "text": "抗艾斯病的药一夜之间就断了",
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      "text": "马斯克说全世界几万家NGO",
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    {
      "start": 627.56,
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      "text": "比尔盖茨基金手里有500亿美金",
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    {
      "start": 629.86,
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      "text": "麦肯齐贝索斯捐了500亿",
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      "text": "他们要是不接",
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      "start": 634.86,
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      "text": "同样有责任",
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      "start": 636.1,
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      "text": "而且这笔钱根本就没有停",
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      "start": 638.26,
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      "text": "只是转到了国务院去了",
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      "text": "老编辑说了全场让我认为最漂亮的一句话",
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      "text": "这两件事情可以同时成立",
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      "text": "马斯克说这完全是假的",
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      "text": "好啊那咱们拆一下",
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      "text": "老编辑的底细来自于柳叶刀",
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    {
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      "text": "133个国家的数据",
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    {
      "start": 666.22,
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      "text": "回头认定这些项目",
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      "text": "20年间避免了大约9100万人的死亡",
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      "text": "咱们也得核对一下",
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      "text": "2025年3月国务卿卢比奥自己宣布",
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      "text": "取消了83%的项目",
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      "text": "砍掉了8成3",
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      "text": "这就好比公司把我出差的报销额度",
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      "text": "本来能够治的病治不了了",
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      "text": "所以你根本没有办法点着名去统计",
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      "text": "算出来本来应该能够活多少人",
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      "text": "你给我名字",
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      "text": "第一个叫户部的黄色",
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      "text": "到底谁死了",
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      "text": "用哪一本",
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      "text": "一条人命一条人命摆在他面前",
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      "text": "随你从哪头念的一个数字",
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      "text": "要的是死亡证明",
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      "text": "伦敦是一座比美国任何一座城市",
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      "text": "马斯克说我去过一百多次",
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      "text": "几年前去的",
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      "text": "这几个回合",
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      "text": "我去过100多次",
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      "text": "那他这个数字站得住脚吗",
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      "text": "伦敦2025年凶杀率",
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      "text": "每10万人是1.1个人",
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      "text": "对面华盛顿特区27.5",
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      "text": "25倍啊",
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      "text": "它是碾压式的正确了",
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      "text": "马斯克也不知道的是英国国家统计局同时发两套犯罪数据",
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      "text": "同一个国家的犯罪",
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      "text": "所以那句所有的数据都不支持你",
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      "text": "老编辑掏出了一件具体的东西",
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      "text": "叫做公民疫情",
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      "text": "2026年加拿大的动作片",
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      "text": "是搬到欧洲的前美国陆军军官",
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      "text": "专去处理那些法律",
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      "text": "法官把六个强奸犯",
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      "text": "当难以融入社会的受害者给放了",
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      "text": "他就把法官杀了",
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      "text": "然后闯进强奸犯的家里头",
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      "text": "把一家人全部处决",
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      "text": "德国的分级机构",
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      "text": "拒绝给这部片子评级",
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      "text": "就等于是不能进院线了",
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      "text": "主演呢",
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      "text": "叫阿米汉默",
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      "text": "2021年",
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      "text": "因为性侵指控",
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      "text": "事业一夜归零",
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      "text": "这是他这几年里头",
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      "text": "唯一接到的主角",
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      "text": "后来有报道说",
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      "text": "他看完成片以后崩溃了",
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    {
      "start": 1095.929,
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      "text": "说这部片子充满仇恨",
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      "text": "令人作呕",
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      "text": "说我给你钱",
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      "text": "给你机会",
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      "text": "让你去拍片子",
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      "text": "你开开心心拍了",
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      "text": "拍完了以后你还被刺",
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      "text": "这也是精英的惯常嘴脸",
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      "text": "6月25号",
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      "text": "这部在德国上不了院线的片子",
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      "text": "被完整的传到了X平台上",
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    {
      "start": 1117.269,
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      "text": "免费放了48个小时",
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      "text": "马斯克本人转发",
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      "text": "还专门提了史翠山效应",
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      "text": "你越是近他",
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      "text": "他传的越广泛",
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      "text": "结果呢",
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      "text": "烂番茄上影评人打分6%",
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      "text": "观众打分94%",
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      "text": "6分对94分这个数字本身就是今天这期节目的缩影",
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      "text": "同一部片子两拨人的分数差了88分",
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      "text": "你说哪一个是假的",
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      "text": "两边都是真的",
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      "text": "至于卖的怎么样啊",
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      "text": "导演自己说了",
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      "text": "截止6月30号",
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      "text": "刘媒体赚了60万美金",
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      "text": "而成本是200万美金",
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      "text": "所以这个片子是亏钱的",
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      "text": "回到桌上啊",
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      "text": "老编辑说了",
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      "text": "我看了啊",
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      "text": "昨天看的",
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      "text": "这不是一部好电影",
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      "text": "他把欧洲化成了一个反乌托邦",
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      "text": "他在美化私刑暴力",
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      "text": "他在美化屠杀一个穆斯林移民家庭",
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      "text": "我认为你把这个东西放在X上",
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      "text": "马斯克回的是什么",
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      "text": "我觉得他就是一部电影",
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      "text": "值得一看",
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    {
      "start": 1182.429,
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      "text": "九个字把老编辑那一大段道德指控",
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    {
      "start": 1185.949,
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      "text": "全都给卸掉了",
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    {
      "start": 1187.369,
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      "text": "这跟街面上开录像厅是一个道理",
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      "start": 1190.569,
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      "text": "街坊说你放的这个片子教坏孩子了",
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    {
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      "text": "老板说这不就是个片子吗",
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    {
      "start": 1195.609,
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      "text": "爱看看不爱看别看啊",
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    {
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      "text": "他一句都没有反驳你",
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      "text": "他也没有说这个是个好片子",
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    {
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      "text": "他把这个架从公堂挪到了街面上",
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    {
      "start": 1204.849,
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      "text": "上了公堂要讲王法",
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    {
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      "text": "在街面上只能讲个人好恶",
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    {
      "start": 1211.149,
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      "text": "你跟我讲该不该负责",
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    {
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      "text": "我再跟你谈这部片子好不好看",
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    {
      "start": 1215.729,
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      "text": "从这个老编辑的角度上说",
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    {
      "start": 1218.129,
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      "text": "其实有一句话他没有说出来",
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    {
      "start": 1219.889,
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      "text": "既然这不是一部好电影",
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      "text": "大家就不应该看",
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    {
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      "text": "而马斯克说的是什么",
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      "start": 1227.469,
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      "text": "每一个人都应该有权利决定自己要不要看",
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      "text": "你没有权利来替我们做决定",
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      "text": "那么第四架是什么呢",
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      "text": "热死的比枪杀的多啊",
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      "text": "这架最短杀伤力最强",
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      "text": "老编辑说了",
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      "text": "美国的谋杀率高的很多",
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      "text": "很大程度是因为枪太多了",
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      "text": "马斯克说了这90分钟里最漂亮的一句反击",
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    {
      "start": 1252.329,
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      "text": "说那我给你一个有意思的数据",
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      "text": "在欧洲高温热死的人",
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      "text": "比美国因为枪杀死亡的人多",
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      "text": "你们怎么不写篇文章讲讲空调呢",
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      "text": "老编辑的反应特别体面啊",
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      "text": "他说我们也写了几篇讲空调的",
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      "text": "上周封面就是一篇长文",
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      "text": "然后加了一句",
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      "text": "你该读读我们啊",
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      "text": "这个数据我查了",
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      "text": "自然医学的研究",
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      "text": "根据自然医学杂志的研究",
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      "text": "覆盖欧洲32个国家",
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      "text": "2024年夏天与高温相关的死亡是62,775人",
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      "text": "美国疾控中心2024年枪支死亡的总数是44,447人",
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      "text": "在数字上马斯克是赢的",
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      "text": "但是这两个数字一个是数出来的",
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      "text": "没有任何一个人的死亡证明上",
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      "text": "写的是死于天热",
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      "text": "天热会诱发心梗脑梗中暑",
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      "text": "所以科学家只能",
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      "text": "把这几天实际的死亡人数",
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      "text": "减去去年同期",
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      "text": "该死的人数",
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      "text": "那个差额算在高温头上了",
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      "text": "叫做超额死亡法",
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      "text": "跟上一架里头",
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      "start": 1327.109,
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      "text": "1400万的那个是一路获色",
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      "text": "报区间数了",
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      "text": "那么这个62775的区间是多少呢",
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      "text": "报了一个中间的数字",
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      "text": "大家听清楚了",
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      "text": "而美国枪支死亡的44447人",
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      "text": "这个数字是一张一张死亡证明开出来的",
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      "start": 1359.889,
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      "text": "也就是说取下界的话",
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      "start": 1361.489,
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      "text": "欧洲热死的人数比美国枪杀的人数要少",
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      "text": "这就是跟打游戏看装备说明一样",
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      "start": 1368.949,
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      "text": "上面写的是伤害3.7万到8.4万",
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      "text": "你不能跟别人说",
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      "start": 1375.709,
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      "text": "我这个刀固定砍一下就是62,000",
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      "text": "区间就是区间",
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      "text": "掐掉区间报数值",
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      "text": "就不是数据了",
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      "text": "是话数",
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    {
      "start": 1384.549,
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      "text": "还有一层正好是他自己这句话的答案",
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    {
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      "text": "欧洲家庭的空调覆盖率",
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    {
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      "text": "大概是20%",
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      "text": "美国大概是90%",
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    {
      "start": 1393.249,
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      "text": "那句你们怎么不写篇空调的文章",
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      "text": "其实给他自己挖了一个坑",
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      "text": "这就是我今天想给大家看见的东西",
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      "text": "粪坑一样的环境里头的长期参与者",
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      "text": "反而这个老太太能讲出这样的话",
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      "text": "我不觉得矛盾啊",
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      "text": "在美国是这样的",
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      "text": "咱们先把数字核对一下",
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      "text": "记者好感度15%大敌属实",
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      "text": "但是换了口径",
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      "text": "盖洛普2025年的数字是",
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      "text": "美国人对于新闻媒体的信任度跌到了历史最低",
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      "text": "50年的调查史上第一次跌到了30%以下",
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      "text": "报纸记者是17%",
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      "text": "一个人可以不喜欢你",
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      "text": "老范跟大家稍微补一下",
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      "text": "共和党人对媒体的信任度",
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      "text": "你们是假新闻对吧",
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    {
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      "text": "Fake News",
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      "text": "民主党人是51%",
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      "text": "美国要内战可能也离着不远了",
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      "text": "所以所谓的媒体被全民憎恨",
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      "text": "准确的说法是",
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      "text": "你的一半读者恨你",
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      "text": "马斯克那句他们恨你说的是那一半",
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      "text": "老编辑的那句",
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      "text": "我跟你不在同一个赛场上",
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      "text": "看看到底埋着是一个什么样的东西",
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      "text": "这就好比是青天大老爷升堂了",
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      "text": "大到你想要什么样的真话",
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      "text": "得出完全对立的结论",
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      "text": "恰恰相反",
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      "text": "高度依赖专业事实核查机构",
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      "text": "维基百科新闻媒体",
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      "text": "他说不需要编辑",
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      "text": "可是他的替代品",
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      "text": "引用的恰恰是编辑们生产出来的东西",
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      "text": "所以老范的判断是",
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      "text": "未来大概率会成为主流",
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      "text": "这个趋势是挡不住的",
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      "text": "说一条给大家参考",
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      "text": "我看到任何一个数字",
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      "text": "第一个反应不是",
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      "text": "是数出来的死亡证明模型",
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      "text": "今天这期节目",
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      "text": "马斯克在自己的平台上对着两亿四千万人",
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      "text": "可是他一条都不能替你做决定",
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      "text": "这就是今天故事要讲的内容",
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      "text": "感谢大家收听",
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      "text": "请帮忙点赞",
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      "text": "也欢迎有兴趣有能力的朋友",
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      "text": "加入我们的付费频道",
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      "text": "再见",
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